New to the CBP : need general advice on strategies

[Funak]

Thanks ! About religion, if I get it correctly, it is necessary to get one in order to avoid unrest ? I still have the BNW mentality that it's better not to invest in faith rather than getting a crappy late religion.

Founding a religion is a pretty big advantage, most AI civs will avoid sending missionaries to you if you've founded your own religion which reduces the unrest you suffer dramatically. It is in CBP basically impossible to build a crappy religion (some combinations are clearly worse than others however) but having control over which beliefs are picked up is still an advantage (as you can tailor it to your needs). Other than that you can get all the bonuses of a founder by finding your closest founder neighbor, killing him and taking his holy city.

 

[Magean]

No, you will get unrest once your cities become religious, be it your religion or others. To avoid this unrest, build religious buildings and/or spend missionaries to convert every citizen to the same religion. They just don't like being unfaithful people living in the city.

As for science, evangelism (religious tenet) is quite good if you want to focus in science. Early on you will research thanks to your social policies, later on you will need to fill science slots with specialists, and in time, pop size will come into account. Academies are good, they improve over the ages. Great Scientists born with fixed science, so you better spend them (bulb or academy) as soon as they born. Whales monopoly is good too. Forests are as good as jungles once you get universities. Late game you could be faith purchasing Great Scientists.

But it's not so bad to be 3rd or 4th in science. You get some free beakers thanks to trading, and techs are cheaper, you can even buy some techs (CIV4 diplomacy enabled). Being ahead in science doesn't ensure any wonder, so no need to be too far ahead if you're not pushing for science victory.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

A few questions more :
-I want to build an envoy, but I need 3 papers, and I can only get 2 from national wonders. So I'm stuck. This is an issue since I was able to produce emissaries with just 1 paper. In other words, technological progress, by removing emissaries, hampered my CS diplomacy... Is there a workaround ? No one wants to sell me paper.

-What's a typical build order in a peaceful game ? I know it is very context-dependent, but there are some things you want to get done ASAP. In my game, I built 2 scouts -> monument -> council -> library. With an archer and a worker at some point. In all of my newfound cities, I followed roughly the same build order (for buildings, not units obviously). I built walls when needing to fight crime, more military units in times of need, workboats and cargo ships, and wells/watermills. I built some arenas to remedy boredom, and buildings synergizing with the local resources (like stoneworks), emphasizing food and production. My gold income is sufficient thanks to trade routes, I'm catching up on science (I was among the last, now I'm 5th), but I haven't developed religion at all : I know that's my main mistake.

EDIT : also, my culture output is insufficient, I don't have enough policies and I had to spend a lot of money in buying tiles. I take it that it's a consequence of my lack of religion.

 

[Funak]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

A few questions more :
-I want to build an envoy, but I need 3 papers, and I can only get 2 from national wonders. So I'm stuck. This is an issue since I was able to produce emissaries with just 1 paper. In other words, technological progress, by removing emissaries, hampered my CS diplomacy... Is there a workaround ? No one wants to sell me paper.

You get paper from Chanceries

 

[Magean]

You get paper from Chanceries

My mistake. Indeed, I found that out a bit later.

 

[tu_79]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

A few questions more :
-I want to build an envoy, but I need 3 papers, and I can only get 2 from national wonders. So I'm stuck. This is an issue since I was able to produce emissaries with just 1 paper. In other words, technological progress, by removing emissaries, hampered my CS diplomacy... Is there a workaround ? No one wants to sell me paper.

-What's a typical build order in a peaceful game ? I know it is very context-dependent, but there are some things you want to get done ASAP. In my game, I built 2 scouts -> monument -> council -> library. With an archer and a worker at some point. In all of my newfound cities, I followed roughly the same build order (for buildings, not units obviously). I built walls when needing to fight crime, more military units in times of need, workboats and cargo ships, and wells/watermills. I built some arenas to remedy boredom, and buildings synergizing with the local resources (like stoneworks), emphasizing food and production. My gold income is sufficient thanks to trade routes, I'm catching up on science (I was among the last, now I'm 5th), but I haven't developed religion at all : I know that's my main mistake.

EDIT : also, my culture output is insufficient, I don't have enough policies and I had to spend a lot of money in buying tiles. I take it that it's a consequence of my lack of religion.

Build order: begin with the monument, then scout or shrine (scout early if you want to be involved in the WorldCongress, refrain otherwise).
Yes, I find your lack of faith disturbing. Meaning, no good pantheon, no good culture.
As Funak adviced, go and capture any Holy City and don't forget to build some Temples. The only reason you don't manage to found a religion should be that you were preparing to take on someone.
For crime unhappiness: Place a high CS unit garrisoned, it increases drastically your city defense, hence you fight crime better, or just bear it. See my post about happiness.

 

[Vodun]

Also it depends on what CIV do you have, Celts can delay shrine because their Spearman can accumulate faith much faster. Plus what ancient ruins you find.

Scout -> Monument -> Shrine, seems to be universally good start. Later you must find what resources you have and what monopolies you can have in near future. Having Salt/Stone/Marble can make your stone works worth a while for example.

 

[Funak]

Also it depends on what CIV do you have, Celts can delay shrine because their Spearman can accumulate faith much faster. Plus what ancient ruins you find.

Celts is like the absolute last civ that can delay their shrine, they get a massive faith-advantage from founding their pantheon and they want it asap.

Scout -> Monument -> Shrine, seems to be universally good start. Later you must find what resources you have and what monopolies you can have in near future. Having Salt/Stone/Marble can make your stone works worth a while for example.

Most people would probably argue that you should go Scout -> Shrine -> Scout or more likely Shrine -> Scout -> Scout. Most of the time if you don't go shrine first you can just forget founding a religion.

 

[Magean]

All right, my current game is a failed one but I'm going to play it to the end so I have a better overall grasp of Vox Populi, and can try out things without fear of ruining an already bad game.

Anyway, is the necessity to found a religion in agreement with the "spirit" of the mod ? I thought (and can see, from what I've done so far) that the mod is about removing no-brainers and making every choice interesting. But, if religion is so important that you have to either found one (while not everyone can found a religion) or steal one early on, then your game is decided very early by your handling of religion. And that removes the choice of ignoring religion, it also seriously impacts your early diplomacy (if you cannot get a religion, you have to be a warmonger and steal one). The G&K and BNW approach was "religion is strong if you do it well, if you don't commit to it then you may as well ignore it" ; if I understand correctly, in Vox Populi it is rather "found/steal a religion or face the consequences".

By the way, how is the warmonger penalty handled in Vox Populi ? Is it as harsh as in the base game for early wars ?

EDIT : also, how important are culture guilds ? How many of each do you typically build ?

A related, more general, question : how specialized are your cities ? With so many flat building bonuses, and so few cumulative bonuses, it seems that specializing cities is not the right way to go - it will just result in high unhappiness if one city is a poor culture-factory, another one is rich but illiterate. That said, is there a point in game where you stop building the same required buildings everywhere, and instead start specializing ? Also, it still seems to be a good idea to build most military stuff in the same high-production place where you have barracks and all, am I right ?

 

[Funak]

All right, my current game is a failed one but I'm going to play it to the end so I have a better overall grasp of Vox Populi, and can try out things without fear of ruining an already bad game.

Anyway, is the necessity to found a religion in agreement with the "spirit" of the mod ? I thought (and can see, from what I've done so far) that the mod is about removing no-brainers and making every choice interesting. But, if religion is so important that you have to either found one (while not everyone can found a religion) or steal one early on, then your game is decided very early by your handling of religion. And that removes the choice of ignoring religion, it also seriously impacts your early diplomacy (if you cannot get a religion, you have to be a warmonger and steal one). The G&K and BNW approach was "religion is strong if you do it well, if you don't commit to it then you may as well ignore it" ; if I understand correctly, in Vox Populi it is rather "found/steal a religion or face the consequences".

Absolutely not. But if you're not planning on founding a religion you can delay your first shrine way longer, I assumed from his build-order actually including a shrine that he wanted to found a religion, and if you do you probably want the shrine earlier.

That being said, founding a religion definitely helps quite a bit.

By the way, how is the warmonger penalty handled in Vox Populi ? Is it as harsh as in the base game for early wars ?

I don't really remember exactly how harsh the warmonger penalties in vanilla was, haven't played it for ages, but my personal guess would be "no". I can usually get away with eliminating a neighbor without suffering any hate from it.

That being said there are quite a few ways to manipulate warmonger penalties that you should probably know of.
You only suffer 50% of the warmonger penalties towards civs you have a declaration of friendship with when you attack another civ. This means friends are likely to stick with you. I think you got about the same mechanic with civs that are at war with the civ you're fighting, but I'm not sure about that (or if they stack).

If the civ attacks you first (you're not the one declaring war) you suffer significantly less warmonger penalty for taking their cities, as it is seen as justified. This includes situations where you taunt the AI into attacking you by telling him to eff off when he tries to talk to you.

From my experience, the AI seems to be way less likely to get mad at you for taking cities if you're doing well. By that I mean if you're tech-score and military score is high, people tend to turn a blind eye towards your warcrimes.

Cities gained from peace-deals do not increase your warmonger score while cities liberated in peace-deals (You asking for a city that the civ captured from someone else and then choose to liberate it when given the option) still decrease your warmogner score.

EDIT : also, how important are culture guilds ? How many of each do you typically build ?

All of them. Even if I can't afford to work them right at that time, I definitely build them as fast as I can.

A related, more general, question : how specialized are your cities ? With so many flat building bonuses, and so few cumulative bonuses, it seems that specializing cities is not the right way to go - it will just result in high unhappiness if one city is a poor culture-factory, another one is rich but illiterate. That said, is there a point in game where you stop building the same required buildings everywhere, and instead start specializing ? Also, it still seems to be a good idea to build most military stuff in the same high-production place where you have barracks and all, am I right ?

CPP isn't exactly about specialization, you kinda need all buildings (some exceptions) in all cities.
That being said, I usually end up with three types of cities.

First type is the city with a lot of production, it could be a lot of hills or some strong resources. This type of city usually run out of buildings to build leaving it extra time to work on military units and/or wonders.
Considering how important production is in this mod, these cities are extremely useful.

Second type is the high-food city, the high food city is a city with some really strong food-tiles, this could be wheat or deer or citrus/olives but usually it is a coastal city with multiple fish-tiles. These cities can usually end up growing rather quickly, so I tend to exploit that by placing my guilds in these cities, as they can afford expending the extra citizens. Sometimes these cities have fairly low production, and sometimes working all those specialists makes the city fall behind on their buildings, this type of city for that reason is the one I'm most likely to spend money on, investing in buildings (especially buildings that improve production).

Third type is the one that doesn't fit into either of the above categories, they spend most of their time building buildings, never really catching up unless you dump a lot of gold on them or if you fall behind on science. I tend to alternate these cities between growth and working specialists, sometimes trying to get some production focus off if I feel like the city is falling behind (or if I need to get some important building up, like a factory or a seaport)
That being said, these buildings are still an asset to your empire, just keep working those specialists.

 

[tu_79]

About warmongering: a raid war is less punishing. The penalty for declaring war, kill some units and pillage some tiles is definitely very small compared to taking cities by force. When you take cities by force, the other civ is more committed than ever, making the war last a lot longer and you may face some unhappiness due to being too long in a war.

 

[Magean]

It's very nice that people are so helpful here.

Another thing : when you get a specialists building up, do you set citizens as specialists ASAP ? You mentioned times where you can't afford to work them.

 

[Funak]

You mentioned times where you can't afford to work them.

Specialists consume a lot of food, slowing down growth a lot, sometimes you can't afford working them.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

I for one always work the guilds specialists as soon as I get those. I build them in cities where i know I have enough food to work them. I much rather use those cultural specialists than science once cause culture is harder to come by than science and in many situations is better to priorize. Also I like to have a lot of specialists in my cities and I am willing to usually slow my growth to get out those great people. Internal trade routes obviously help a lot in this matter. Also the food belief (don't remember the name) is wonderful to have bunch of specialists.

 

[Magean]

Specialists consume a lot of food, slowing down growth a lot, sometimes you can't afford working them.

Sure, but what do you typically consider to be too much of a drag on growth ? In other words, how many turns before next citizen are "too much" ?

 

[Funak]

Sure, but what do you typically consider to be too much of a drag on growth ? In other words, how many turns before next citizen are "too much" ?

This varies way too much with the situaton, and I know it varies a lot from person to person. I'm personally guilty of delaying specialists in favor growth a bit too much I'm always in the mindset of "Just one more pop".

Honestly the CBP automated citizens are working really well, so if you don't feel comfortable with when to work what, you can definitely leave it automated. I mean I've on purpose played games where I never manually controlled a citizen or specialist in any city, only switching the focus of the governor, it was totally fine.
Played the same game with automated workers as well, with absolutely no problems, so the automation can definitely pick up your slack if you're feeling confused.

 

[Magean]

So, turn 290 now. I'm not backward anymore, that's a good thing, and I've grasped the essentials of the mod. I actually don't mind about micromanaging specialists, I prefer doing so.

A few things :
-how powerful are corporations ? I could get the jewelry one, it's +5% GP per foreign franchise and some bonus to trade route for cities with an office. If I understand correctly, franchises are spread through trade routes, but there can't be more franchises than possible trade routes ?

-when the game refers to "completing a trade route", does that mean finishing the 30 turns, or reaching the foreign city with a ship/caravan, or doing a round trip ?

-I've noticed that colonists (advanced settlers you get at Biology) behave like basic settlers, while pioneers (the Banking ones) actually create advanced cities. After a quick research, looks like I'm not the first to report this bug. Has it been corrected in the current build ? I'm asking to know whether to do a bug report.

-How stable is the latest build ? At first, I thought it was a beta of the next version, but now I see that the stable build (the one from March) I'm playing is actually an alpha, with the mod not having reached a stable phase yet. So, we can't expect an alpha to be perfectly polished, and a beta could actually be more stable.

 

[Funak]

So, turn 290 now. I'm not backward anymore, that's a good thing, and I've grasped the essentials of the mod. I actually don't mind about micromanaging specialists, I prefer doing so.

A few things :
-how powerful are corporations ? I could get the jewelry one, it's +5% GP per foreign franchise and some bonus to trade route for cities with an office. If I understand correctly, franchises are spread through trade routes, but there can't be more franchises than possible trade routes ?

There is an upper limit for franchises which depends on number of trade-routes. They are not the same number however.

-when the game refers to "completing a trade route", does that mean finishing the 30 turns, or reaching the foreign city with a ship/caravan, or doing a round trip ?

It means finishing the 30 turns (which is not 30 turns by the time corporations becomes available, more like 15)

-I've noticed that colonists (advanced settlers you get at Biology) behave like basic settlers, while pioneers (the Banking ones) actually create advanced cities. After a quick research, looks like I'm not the first to report this bug. Has it been corrected in the current build ? I'm asking to know whether to do a bug report.

It has already been reported, no new version has been released since then however so I don't know if it has been fixed. Probably.

-How stable is the latest build ? At first, I thought it was a beta of the next version, but now I see that the stable build (the one from March) I'm playing is actually an alpha, with the mod not having reached a stable phase yet. So, we can't expect an alpha to be perfectly polished, and a beta could actually be more stable.

This is the biggest misconception about the mod, probably. The stable version usually have nothing to do with stability. Beta builds are released when a major gamechange is made, and then the mod stays in beta for a few versions after that. I assume this is because the major change run the risk of beng reverted, although I've never actually seen that happening. Sometimes the major changes happen so close together that the mod never gets a stable version in between which leads to situations where the stable version is REALLY old.

The latest of these major changes, the one that's keeping the beta in beta is the Events system. Before that it was the science rework.


Anyways considering the entire project is kinda in Beta, the actual beta could technically be called an alpha, perhaps, but this is the way it works anyways.

 

[Magean]

Thanks for the clarification. Another little question : how do you typically spend your early game gold ? Assuming you don't have a dangerous neighbor forcing you to buy emergency troops. I myself have always liked saving for a worker.

 

[Funak]

Thanks for the clarification. Another little question : how do you typically spend your early game gold ? Assuming you don't have a dangerous neighbor forcing you to buy emergency troops. I myself have always liked saving for a worker.

Personally I tend to rush buildings in newly founded cities, and if I have access to an early-game unique building I usually rush that one in all cities as soon as it's available.
Most of the time I'm flat out broke in the early-game because I build a lot of workers, but that's how I spend gold I receive from events/quests/barbcamps/ruins. Usually you're best of spending the gold as soon as possible, for example if I find 120ish gold in my first ancient ruin I'm going to spend that gold rushing both my shrine and my monument in the capital, mostly because kickstarting things tend to snowball the game. (faster shrine means faster pantheon which means faster religion, faster monument means faster policies which usually means even faster policies as the first policies in each tree tend to be culture-focused)

 

[Magean]

Thanks for the answer. I'm currently reading your AMA thread, quite useful.

Regarding food buildings, do you prioritize flat food bonuses (e.g granaries) or growth % bonuses (aqueducts) ? I realize the choice also depends on resource synergy.