New video on the late game

[Siptah]

And here is the info on the late game:

https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...logs/776-humankind-feature-focus-12-late-game

 

[mielony]

"I don't think I have ever been this excited about a game release. Is there any way to accelerate through time for the next four days?"

 

[Krajzen]

And here is the info on the late game:

https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...logs/776-humankind-feature-focus-12-late-game

I have no idea how much they will fail or succeed, but it's hard not to feel infinitely more hope towards such fundamental issues here than in civ series where we pass through years of devs being utterly silent about the most significant problems of the game. Such as the awful second half, or crippled modding.

By the way, fun fact. Despite being her for such a long time, I only really know what factions does the game contain, how does the basic combat work (played only the first 'basic exploration' and 'basic combat' alphas), and some basic principles of its design. I have genuinely no idea what does the game contain otherwise mechanically, because for various private reasons my ability ad will to be heavily invested in HK's pre release life were slightly compromised recently. I kind of feel relaxed by such situation, as opposed to my long tradition of perfectionism when approaching new games.

 

[Taefin]

Okay, I’m excited for industrial/minders combat! It didn’t fully occur to me that LoS would create interesting cover opportunities (can we accentuate trees on the map more plz) and that tanks would provide cover for infantry so naturally. It still feels weird seeing modern units on such a green/sparse map, and the tanks/helicopters seem too big. It would be cool if city graphics got a refresh after release to look more industrial/modern. Also causing artillery to devastate territory could be visually and technically interesting.

On that note, Artillery seems to be the answer to my question of “won’t the map become super crowded with units?”

Very excited for the nuclear play! Allowing retaliatory strike (and actually coding AI nuclear behavior) will be welcome changes. Can’t wait for half my games to end “early” due to conflict.

 

[troubleshooting]

I think this game will be fertile ground for an R.E.D.-style mod to resize units, especially in the late game. Not sure if re-skinning will be necessary however.

 

[Taefin]

Hopefully someone posts about this beforehand, but I know I’m just going to be worried my entire first game about whether the AI will build a single AA unit

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Starting with the Gunpowder units in the Early Modern Age (Renaissance Age for you Luddites) there are some really, really interesting changes in combat in the game.

First, note that to some extent, Humankind has solved the old problem of 'overpowered Ranged units' that has bedeviled Civ since they started using 1UPT. Every unit in the game has 1 or more 'characteristics' attached to it permanently (and at last count there were 88 different 'characteristics' so there is a massive degree of differentiation among units - but don't panic: I estimate that between 25 - 33% of the 'characteristics' are specific to various Emblematic Units, and another batch are specific to naval or air units, so you don't have to sweat memorizing all of them). The pre-gunpowder archer/crossbow ranged units are all Ranged - which characteristic includes the fact that they are penalized when defending against a close-range attack. In other words, Archers in the open get ridden down and massacred like the vermin they are. In fact, an ordinary Spearman or Horseman can 'one shot' an ordinary Archer in the open in melee.
But, Gunpowder changes things. The gunpowder units, starting with Arquebusiers in the Early Modern Age, have the characteristic: Gunner. They fight at full strength when defending against close-range attacks, and after you research "Line Formation" Tech in the late Industrial Age (in other words, and correctly, about the time of the American Civil War IRL) you get the "Entrenching Tool" effect, which allows Gunner Units that have not moved in their Battle Round to gain a Dug-In status with extra defense against Everything. After that, simply charging an infantry unit that is Dug In becomes a much dicier and far more expensive exercise than before. On the other hand, there are several units that can remove a Dug In status: Mortars, Howitzers, Siege Artillery. And they all have ranges of 8, which means they can sit back off the battlefield but within 'Reinforcing' distance and pound the enemy to 'soften him up' before you send in the charge. Sound familiar? In one fell swoop they have recreated modern battlefield combat tactics from 1861 to 2021 and the increased complexity required: no more lining up stronger units and rolling forward: an unprepared attack is asking for a bloody nose in almost every case.

One more Tactical goodie from the late game, which in fact can also grab you in the early game: Suppression. This has the effect that if you attack an enemy unit with a unit that has this characteristic, that unit is pinned in place in the next Battle Round - it cannot move, and its combat factor is reduced. The Hittite Heavy Chariot (Gigir - Emblematic Ancient Unit) has this characteristic, which means if they charge you, you are stuck in place for whatever your opponent wants to do next. The MIng Rocket Cart and Siamese Gatling Elephant also have this characteristic, which means their ranged fire also pins a unit in place. And for those not playing as Ming or Siam or the Hitittes, the general Industrial Age unit Heavy Machine Gun can Suppress. Now you know why Machine Guns are useful: their fire can stop an enemy unit in its tracks, and set it up for a counterattack or a strike by something bigger, like a Seige Artillery piece or Howitzer from off the battlefield in the following Battle Round.

To be honest, if you know historically-accurate and successful tactics from military history, they work in the game. Some of the units are mis-named or depicted: the 'Howitzer' illustration actually shows a Napoleonic Field Cannon, and Mortar's descriptive narrative actually relates to a Bombard, but their Effects are pretty well depicted in game terms.

It also means, even not including air power, that modern (Industrial Age and later) tactical combat is more complicated and requires more careful planning than earlier, when simple outflanking or Hold the High Ground was the beginning and end of tactics. Try Holding the High Ground where you are in Line of Sight to Everybody in the Modern Age, and you are very likely to get blown off the High Ground by an artillery strike, combined with Suppression from a Machine Gun and then a charge that rolls over your pitiful remnants.

 

[Elhoim]

Hopefully someone posts about this beforehand, but I know I’m just going to be worried my entire first game about whether the AI will build a single AA unit

What I can assure you is that they build a lot of airplanes.

 

[Taefin]

What I can assure you is that they build a lot of airplanes.

Are we talking swarms of late game biplanes or…?

 

[Victoria]

Are we talking swarms of late game biplanes or…?

I doubt it unless multiplayer. Finished 2 games this week.
1st game no civ got into the modern era sciences much before T300.
2nd game I was 1 turning most modern techs and finished the game before any other civ got contemporary.

Lots of reasons for this, I think there is a fine line between too much and too little which is really hard to balance across player skill ranges.
Maybe MP is the place it could happen.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I doubt it unless multiplayer. Finished 2 games this week.
1st game no civ got into the modern era sciences much before T300.
2nd game I was 1 turning most modern techs and finished the game before any other civ got contemporary.

Lots of reasons for this, I think there is a fine line between too much and too little which is really hard to balance across player skill ranges.
Maybe MP is the place it could happen.

I won't even start on how many Balance Passes there have been balancing Tech Progression since the Victor Open Dev. Unfortunately, it is one of those things that is not really 'balanced' - if you concentrate at all on Science, you'll be pumping out Techs at the rate of 1 for every 1 - 3 turns throughout the Contemporary Age, and be piling up Contemporary Techs after you've maxed out all your Fame Stars from Science/Technology in the last Age. On the other hand, if you ignore Science, all other things being equal, your 'Line Infantry' will be firing their black powder rifles at foreign Multi-Role Jets flying overhead at the end of the game.
I confess, I still haven't quite found a 'sweet spot' to get the Techs I want without completely running away with technology in the last 100 turns - but to be fair, I've had the same problem in Civ VI since the game came out years ago!

 

[Victoria]

I've had the same problem in Civ VI since the game came out years ago!

Yes, it’s in the reliance on techs, and HK is more reliant than VI. Things that are civics in VI are techs, core things like stack size, city limits, and even fame.
However, I did read one interesting strategy guide that was purely religion based with very few districts based on expansion and zone quantity. Will have to give it a go to see how valid it still is.

 

[Taefin]

Does it still seem like the issue is the massive science multipliers you pick up with science cultures? On its face, the linear growth via RQ should naturally encourage building up a competitive amount of science but since each one only gives you 20-30 more science, at some point building another is not as effective as training a unit.

My impression of neglecting science was “neglect science for now” and then dive hard into science when it becomes necessary. But HK does seem to take a different approach to Civ6 where everything produces science. It’s amazing how important early game researchers are, even for non-science cultures.

 

[Victoria]

massive science multipliers you pick up with science cultures?

I took 2 science cultures in the last game, and their diistricts did yeap, yes, but were typically not multipliers but additives. Also cities I took over with research already in place had great science so its not that they were lacking. I think it is more the early start of using science with the babylonians. Even before then the min/maxers were saying wor the science first before even growth (I never did this) The Babylonians also have a food/science mix which helps but more than that, if you start thinking fame. you think, hey I am good at science so lets have my next civ also science. And the choices you make culturally, you are subconsciously thinking science so you take more science culture options. I know when I played Egyptians first I started taking building civics and choices. So there seems a natural polarisation in your head you need to fight, to think balance not big.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I took 2 science cultures in the last game, and their diistricts did yeap, yes, but were typically not multipliers but additives. Also cities I took over with research already in place had great science so its not that they were lacking. I think it is more the early start of using science with the babylonians. Even before then the min/maxers were saying wor the science first before even growth (I never did this) The Babylonians also have a food/science mix which helps but more than that, if you start thinking fame. you think, hey I am good at science so lets have my next civ also science. And the choices you make culturally, you are subconsciously thinking science so you take more science culture options. I know when I played Egyptians first I started taking building civics and choices. So there seems a natural polarisation in your head you need to fight, to think balance not big.

Over concentration on one thing is not a winning strategy in this game. There are 7 categories of Fame Stars, you need 7 Stars to advance to the next Age, but you can only get 3 Stars per category. That means you MUST have some broader abilities in at least 3 categories to keep up.

And, the categories the Factions fall into do not always reflect what you can get out of them. My favorites (at the moment!) are the Zhou in the Ancient Age, Mauryans in the Classical and the Teutons in the Medieval Age.
The Zhou are Aesthetes, but their Emblematic Quarter (Confucian School) gets a Science Bonus for each adjacent Mountain tile. Place a School adroitly in a mountainous Region, and you can double the rate you get early Techs instantly.
The Mauryans are Aesthete also, but their Stupa Emblematic Quarter produces extra Faith, Science and Influence, extra Researchers and counts as another Research Quarter - again, a potential Science Faction masquerading as something different
The Teutons are Expansionists, but their Legacy Trait gives extra Science and Money for every follower of their Religion Anywhere - for the rest of the game. If you've already got a strong Religion started, this Faction is a potential Gold and Science Mine for the next three Eras.

I started playing the game taking Science Factions predominantly, because, basically, that's pretty much how I usually played Civ - as a Science Focus first, and everything else as required. Humankind gives a lot more variety and flexibility in choices, and potentially some very 'sweet' combinations to achieve desired results.

 

[Taefin]

typically not multipliers but additives

It’s been a while since beta, but I was thinking there were some EQ that give a bonus per RQ, and then building multiple in larger cities. I felt Joseon might have been glitching with harbor yields of 136 science back then.

How were unit production costs late game with a science focus? Did you have to build a high-production city?

 

[Victoria]

How were unit production costs late game with a science focus? Did you have to build a high-production city?

I am still young to the game, merely a week old. You can build unit discount buildings but I found I often wanted to buy units when needed. So I concentrated on district discounts so I could pop out a district in a turn or two. It sort of feels that you generalise rather than specialise because each zone can only have one unique district of a given era.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I am still young to the game, merely a week old. You can build unit discount buildings but I found I often wanted to buy units when needed. So I concentrated on district discounts so I could pop out a district in a turn or two. It sort of feels that you generalise rather than specialise because each zone can only have one unique district of a given era.

This is generalizing, of course, but frequently from the mid-game on Buying Infrastructure, Districts/Quarters or Units is the better option. This makes Money in some instances more useful than Industry/Production for getting things done.
You can also 'buy' things by sacrificing population, but I have never found an instance where the cost wasn't too ridiculously high: you get an extra District but you lose a dozen Specialists giving you bonus points in other Districts of the same city = 0 gain or 'negative gain'.

One thing that wasn't obvious to me until fairly late (like, last couple of months). Humankind has an enormous number of 'infrastructure' constructions you can build in a City - around 90 compared to Civ VI's less than 30. Most of these provide some kind of incremental bonus to various Districts/Quarters, a few apply a Bonus per Population in a city - which can get pretty substantial late in the game.
There are also some additions, starting in the Early Modern Age, that Jump Start new cities enormously. I think the earliest is Colony Plan, which starts every new City with 3 Population, 210 Production, and all Infrastructures from the Ancient, Classical, and Medieval Ages - automatically. The first time I 'late started' a City with that I was getting +20 to +30 bonuses from new Districts, because of all the accumulative bonuses from all the 'Constructibles' in the city.
Colony Blueprint, at Steam Tech in the Industrial Age, does the same thing but with 4 population, 280 Production, and all the Infrastructures buildable from Ancient through Early Modern Ages.
Finally, Colony Grid at Civil Engineering Tech in the Modern Era drops a city with 6 Population, 350 Production, and all the Infrastructures through the Industrial Age.

Basically, you can upgrade an Outpost to a City and pump out a District/Quarter every turn for even more of everything until you run out of Stability - and you will have Stability to burn for at least a while because of all the Stability-enhancing Infrastructures. It's mind-boggling, and such a change from a late game City in Civ that has to buy everything for X turns because it doesn't have the Production capacity to build anything in the late game.

 

[Taefin]

You can also 'buy' things by sacrificing population, but I have never found an instance where the cost wasn't too ridiculously high: you get an extra District but you lose a dozen Specialists giving you bonus points in other Districts of the same city = 0 gain or 'negative gain'.

At closed beta I found that it worked well to always at least use force labor to rush food infrastructure, since you recoup the pop in the time it would have taken to build it. Also early game I often cannot support too many pops so better to sacrifice one than sit without any growth. But later on specialists are way too good to kill unless growth is outpacing quarters, e.g., with food cultures. Unless they really cranked up the early game cost.

 

[Victoria]

If you really want your head blown off, read this, https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...-for-humankind-adjacencies?page=1#post-303098

It will be interesting to see how many of these new mechanics work, there is not huge amounts of information in-game and I cannot find log files

Spoiler :

Quite off topic but this cheered me up today, very fashionable!