I think the korean Hwacha looks extremely strong. 5 strength, 50% vs melee, just like the axeman. Besides you have coloteral damage and needs no resources to build it! Think of a Hwacha stack of doom, it must be unstoppable if you havent loads of horsearchers/elephants.........
New Warlords Civ Info from Ign.com - 7/6
- Thread starter dc82
- Start date
monkspider
Warlord
Why do some posters believe that existing leaders' traits won't be changed? It sounds like a no-brainer to me...
Lots of interesting new units. My first post is about celts 
I think a lot of people miss out on fact the unique building for celts is a wall and not a barracks. So in theory you can add a second or third promotion with civics and a barrack.
If you plan and build cities on hills your defenders will be 20% stronger straight off. Thats +45% defence for a defender in a city on a hill without any cultural bonus. Im betting the AI will add the second promotion for 30% or a city garrison promotion.
20%(guerrilla)+25%(hills)+25%(city garrison)=70% (feel free to add cultural and any other bonuses)
Those archers/longbowmen will be quite powerful in defence if the AI does it right.
Okay this strategy depends on hills but the AI seems very good at that in most of my games.
Worse case scenario your swordsmen become good for barbarian defence to protect worked land.
I think a lot of people miss out on fact the unique building for celts is a wall and not a barracks. So in theory you can add a second or third promotion with civics and a barrack.
If you plan and build cities on hills your defenders will be 20% stronger straight off. Thats +45% defence for a defender in a city on a hill without any cultural bonus. Im betting the AI will add the second promotion for 30% or a city garrison promotion.
20%(guerrilla)+25%(hills)+25%(city garrison)=70% (feel free to add cultural and any other bonuses)
Those archers/longbowmen will be quite powerful in defence if the AI does it right.
Okay this strategy depends on hills but the AI seems very good at that in most of my games.
Worse case scenario your swordsmen become good for barbarian defence to protect worked land.
The korean UU Hwacha will make attacking/defending cities more interesting with protective and +50 against melee. Could a catapult in defence put a stop to axemen and swordsmen esp with drill 1 and 2 promotion? For me the +50% against melee will provide an opportunity for a great unit. A Hwacha could now take on a axemen or swordsmen and win far more often!! By the time it reaches the AI city it could well have 2-4+ promotions if you plan ahead. Barrack, vassalage etc. However you use it your reliable Hwacha has become an amazing unit and is less prone to melee attack although horse units will be best to take out now in open field.
Does it really need protective?? The units biggest weakness will be against longbowmen/ horse archer when they arrive but still a mean machine and worth a beeline if you play korea. Its like a resourceless axemen with collateral damage and first strike. Ackkkkkkkkkkk!!!! Run for those celtic hills!!!! Run i say!!!!
I think a lot of these new civ UU will make early axemen rush more work and perhaps that is Firaxis plan. Another strategy goes nerf?
Favourite UU by time expansion comes out? Odds versus a praetorian? Its a unit that everyone would build anyway even if it wasnt a UU!!!
Does it really need protective?? The units biggest weakness will be against longbowmen/ horse archer when they arrive but still a mean machine and worth a beeline if you play korea. Its like a resourceless axemen with collateral damage and first strike. Ackkkkkkkkkkk!!!! Run for those celtic hills!!!! Run i say!!!!
I think a lot of these new civ UU will make early axemen rush more work and perhaps that is Firaxis plan. Another strategy goes nerf?
Favourite UU by time expansion comes out? Odds versus a praetorian? Its a unit that everyone would build anyway even if it wasnt a UU!!!
I am still a bit confused with how the civ unique buildings work? The ottomans will get +2 happiness from their UB. So will they get the +2 happiness along with the +2 health, or will they just get the +2 happiness?
I think it would be cool if the affects of the building the UB replaces, do not count for that civ. I think it would cause a greater distinction in the style you play with each civ.
I think it would be cool if the affects of the building the UB replaces, do not count for that civ. I think it would cause a greater distinction in the style you play with each civ.
drkodos
Emperor
monkspider said:
My guess? (And that is all it it, a guess) They will not be affected.
Why?
Because they would have to re-do the original version and then rewrite the actual rule book to accomodate the changes in leader traits. That's my version of why and I'm sticking with it.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Yes, they changed the traits in Civ 3 when they added Agriculture and Seafaring.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
night_f3 said:
But there are now significantly more unused trait options. What's the point of that?
When Conquests came out for Civ3, they redid some of the old civs too. I thought they might have changed more, but they did a decent job and made sure only two civs shared the same traits, while everyone else got new ones.
EDIT: Just to add to my previous comments. Aggressive, Expansive; Aggressive, Financial; and Expansive, Organized now have 2 leaders using these traits. At the same time (keeping in mind we still don't know 3 leader traits) there are now 25 unused traits. If Firaxis wanted the old leaders to keep their traits, I can't imagine that they would have doubled up on traits when there are so many to choose from.
I don't think they'll dramatically redo everyone, but I do think that three old leaders will recieve new traits. And, depending on the traits of Stalin, Rameses II, and Augustus, there might be three more.
all the new units look good
the korean rocket cart looks realy good. maby now we can have a arty unit that wont allways lose the fight.
allso the numidian calvery looks good too.
im disappointed in the galic swords man.. personally what needs to be done to it is maby give it 6 atack like normal, and just give it 2 movement.
if not that give it gurllia 1 and woodsman 1. and plus 25% vs malli units*sp*
allso the berserker....
so it gets a plus 10% vs mallie units... for a total of 60%?
the korean rocket cart looks realy good. maby now we can have a arty unit that wont allways lose the fight.
allso the numidian calvery looks good too.
im disappointed in the galic swords man.. personally what needs to be done to it is maby give it 6 atack like normal, and just give it 2 movement.
if not that give it gurllia 1 and woodsman 1. and plus 25% vs malli units*sp*
allso the berserker....
so it gets a plus 10% vs mallie units... for a total of 60%?
Louis XXIV said:
I agree. Looking back at civ 3, i can't imagine them not changing existing leaders traits. and in light of all the old traits re-appearing with new leaders, i would take it as a given that there will be a slight re vamp in the old civ leaders traits.
on a side note, i'm looking forward to playing with the celts now that everyone is kind of dogging them for their uu. i can envision gallic swordsmen racing through the hills and possibly the forests to surprise attack some unsuspecting ai.
don't forget that with charasmatic civs you get promotions quicker, so with a barracks, perhaps a great leader or combo of civics bonuses, you could probably rack up 3 more promotions to go with that gurilla 1 bonus upon unit construction. If one were to use those bonuses for guerilla 2 and woodsman 1 and 2, and you have yourself a very mobile city attacker and good forest/hill defender.
Louis XXIV said:
Personally, I would like for each leader to have a unique set of traits. I would be fine with having the original leaders change. You can easily make a case for Caesar and Genghis to be either Imperialistic/Charismatic, and have a similar new trait for Capac, but that would mean having different traits for the original leaders in vanilla Civ4 and Warlords. I just expressed my opinion on what I think Firaxis might do, which might be incorrect considering I did not know that Firaxis changed traits for Civ3 expansion/
There are 28 different combination traits in Civ 4, of which Phil/Ind and Cre/Org combos were excluded considered as uber-combos. The introduction of 3 new traits add 27 new combinations, of which there are sure to be a few uber-combos, such as Charismatic/Protective etc. Clearly Firaxis is not going to be able to fill all trait combos with 10 expansion leaders in Warlords and I doubt they will devote time to pick leaders to accurately fill the remaining combos in the next expansion, without new additional traits.
Vikings seem like quite the naval powerhouse. Even on just a Galley with base move of 2, you can get them up to 5 MP by just the UB, Nav 2 and going around the globe - and if your ships already have 3 or 4 MP vs the other civ's 2, then your ahead there to begin with. If your game goes long enough to get transports, then, well, your looking at 8 MP, and if you manage to make Destroyers you'll have 11 MP. Sure, the combo is obtainable now, but you'd need to get Flanking I, and that's just to get +1 to your movement. Now, all you need is the UB and a drydocks, or Theocracy, or Vessalage to get +3 movement if you've gone around the globe, which you should have... seems to me like any map with Water is a Viking's dream map. Unless they redo the Nav 2 to require Nav 1 plus Flanking I instead of just Nav 1, Vikings really will become a little too powerful in the water, or so I believe. When your able to go completely around the globe in 4 turns on any mapsize by just needing a unit to be level 2, that's something I can see as being a little off balance. Imagine trying to get past these guys. You have 8 MP, they have 11... your really, really outgunned, and they can drop units on you far more often than you do against them for cheaper.
My thoughts:
Charismatic trait:
I am going to make a prediction here and say that I think the Charismatic trait will become the warmongers choice. Extra happiness and more promotions for a player that is constantly at war - plus the fact that they will get Great General's/Warlords as well. I could see it working really well for a player who constantly goes to war.
Old civ trait changes:
Genghis: Aggressive, Expansive. Favoured civic: Police State.
Skaha: Aggressive, Expansive. Favoured civic: Police State.
...I will be floored (and gutted) if Genghis's traits aren't changed.
Unique Buildings
Wow. I like them. They all seem to have their quirk about them.
The Ottomans: Are you kidding me?!? I have never seen a civ combination that spells "massive empire builder" like this. Organised and Expansive plus a UB that gives +2 happiness and +2 healthiness. That means that each city built with the UB will have +5 healthiness, +2 happiness and will be able to build Granaries and Courthouses at half price. Flippin' heck! I will say though: I wish all of the leaders trait combinations had that synergy about it (Phi/Ind has a great synergy about it. It's overpowered because the other traits don't have that synergy also. I love that synergy).
The Celts: I think people will find the Celts to be better than they look. Their cities will be good defensively as building the UB would be encouraged. Something that may not be obvious: Because he is not Aggressive, the barracks are going to be more expensive (and initial mele unit promotions harder to come by - which is compensated for by the Charismatic trait). Building the UB (which is a wall replacement), will be strange. I could maybe see players going for the UB instead of the barracks when building their forces in the early game. So units will come out with no experience and a Gurilla promotion. The thing is, it will only require 2 experience to get the next Gurilla II promotion (not factoring in the effects of Charismatic). It will also be interesting to see what the cost of the UU will be.
Shaka: Aggressive, Expansive and a UB barracks that reduces city maintenance by 20%! Well, that would make for an interesting game. Remember that the Aggressive trait doubles production of the barracks (or in this case, the UB) and gives a free Combat promotion to the UU as well. Heh. Should be interesting. I can see a really rapid - true - expansion strategy. For chopping a Granary and the UB in a new city (where both of them will be chopped at double the hammers because of his traits), which will probably be done with 3 forests at most before Mathematics, you get a city that grows twice as fast and can grow for longer, a cheap barracks built that gives 4 experience to units built there and 20% reduction in maintanence costs. On top of that, the UU that is built there will have Combat I plus 4 extra experience and a unit that moves fast. Wow. Not bad for 3 chops! With courthouses, that will be a 70% reduction in maintenance!!! Imagine it the UU didn't require any resources....
Cathaginians: Well, is it my imagination or is Firaxis trying to make some leaders blatently powerful and others not so much...maybe to cater for those who want easier leaders to play on maybe harder difficulties or something? Depending on the UU's effectiveness, I think this will be Catherine's replacement. It has a UU that is early aswell. Maybe Firaxis is trying to make a variety of combinations that allow for abvious strategies and others with not so obvious strategies.
Koreans: Interesting how their UB is rather weak. Maybe that is because of the powerful UU. It will be interesting to know whether the Protective trait does in fact give Drill I and II to all the seige units (minus the MG) or whether it gives it to only the Artillery. If it's all, then the UU looks unstoppable.
I must say, after seeing a few of the combinations here. I am reallly starting to like the synergy that the trait/UB combos seem to have. I hope aallll of the leaders are like this - each with their own 'flavour' or appeal. The Ottomans seem clearly to be about big empires. Shaka seems clearly about rapid militristic expansion (finally a true expansion - faster growth with reduced maintanence). I hope they keep this up. I would love it if they altered Genghis's strategy to be of militaristic expansion via Vassal States and have his empire built on being tributed gold and research and the enforcing of the Vassal States. That would be a realistic flavour for him and would be consistant with that uniqueness of play style that they appear to be trying to achieve here. I think that because we are not used to the synergy of traits in this game (excluding a few), they will all look overpowered. I love it how they have set it up with traits and UB combos that support each other and the leaders strategy really well.
I am finding it really surprising however, that they haven't released anyone with the Imperialistic trait at all. In fact, come to think of it, the Imperialistic trait almost seems like the black sheep of the traits that was sneaked in or something (marketing wise). My ideas on who gets the Imperialistic trait: Isabella, Victoria, Genghis, Napolean, Julius (or Augustus) and Alexander. I think 6-8 leaders with the same trait seems balanced.
And finally, I am sooo interested in what all the leader's (old and new) traits/UB combos will be. I would love to find the strategy in them also. I just wish they would release a list or something of all the leaders and their traits and UB's.
Watiggi
Charismatic trait:
I am going to make a prediction here and say that I think the Charismatic trait will become the warmongers choice. Extra happiness and more promotions for a player that is constantly at war - plus the fact that they will get Great General's/Warlords as well. I could see it working really well for a player who constantly goes to war.
Old civ trait changes:
Genghis: Aggressive, Expansive. Favoured civic: Police State.
Skaha: Aggressive, Expansive. Favoured civic: Police State.
...I will be floored (and gutted) if Genghis's traits aren't changed.
Unique Buildings
Wow. I like them. They all seem to have their quirk about them.
The Ottomans: Are you kidding me?!? I have never seen a civ combination that spells "massive empire builder" like this. Organised and Expansive plus a UB that gives +2 happiness and +2 healthiness. That means that each city built with the UB will have +5 healthiness, +2 happiness and will be able to build Granaries and Courthouses at half price. Flippin' heck! I will say though: I wish all of the leaders trait combinations had that synergy about it (Phi/Ind has a great synergy about it. It's overpowered because the other traits don't have that synergy also. I love that synergy).
The Celts: I think people will find the Celts to be better than they look. Their cities will be good defensively as building the UB would be encouraged. Something that may not be obvious: Because he is not Aggressive, the barracks are going to be more expensive (and initial mele unit promotions harder to come by - which is compensated for by the Charismatic trait). Building the UB (which is a wall replacement), will be strange. I could maybe see players going for the UB instead of the barracks when building their forces in the early game. So units will come out with no experience and a Gurilla promotion. The thing is, it will only require 2 experience to get the next Gurilla II promotion (not factoring in the effects of Charismatic). It will also be interesting to see what the cost of the UU will be.
Shaka: Aggressive, Expansive and a UB barracks that reduces city maintenance by 20%! Well, that would make for an interesting game. Remember that the Aggressive trait doubles production of the barracks (or in this case, the UB) and gives a free Combat promotion to the UU as well. Heh. Should be interesting. I can see a really rapid - true - expansion strategy. For chopping a Granary and the UB in a new city (where both of them will be chopped at double the hammers because of his traits), which will probably be done with 3 forests at most before Mathematics, you get a city that grows twice as fast and can grow for longer, a cheap barracks built that gives 4 experience to units built there and 20% reduction in maintanence costs. On top of that, the UU that is built there will have Combat I plus 4 extra experience and a unit that moves fast. Wow. Not bad for 3 chops! With courthouses, that will be a 70% reduction in maintenance!!! Imagine it the UU didn't require any resources....
Cathaginians: Well, is it my imagination or is Firaxis trying to make some leaders blatently powerful and others not so much...maybe to cater for those who want easier leaders to play on maybe harder difficulties or something? Depending on the UU's effectiveness, I think this will be Catherine's replacement. It has a UU that is early aswell. Maybe Firaxis is trying to make a variety of combinations that allow for abvious strategies and others with not so obvious strategies.
Koreans: Interesting how their UB is rather weak. Maybe that is because of the powerful UU. It will be interesting to know whether the Protective trait does in fact give Drill I and II to all the seige units (minus the MG) or whether it gives it to only the Artillery. If it's all, then the UU looks unstoppable.
I must say, after seeing a few of the combinations here. I am reallly starting to like the synergy that the trait/UB combos seem to have. I hope aallll of the leaders are like this - each with their own 'flavour' or appeal. The Ottomans seem clearly to be about big empires. Shaka seems clearly about rapid militristic expansion (finally a true expansion - faster growth with reduced maintanence). I hope they keep this up. I would love it if they altered Genghis's strategy to be of militaristic expansion via Vassal States and have his empire built on being tributed gold and research and the enforcing of the Vassal States. That would be a realistic flavour for him and would be consistant with that uniqueness of play style that they appear to be trying to achieve here. I think that because we are not used to the synergy of traits in this game (excluding a few), they will all look overpowered. I love it how they have set it up with traits and UB combos that support each other and the leaders strategy really well.
I am finding it really surprising however, that they haven't released anyone with the Imperialistic trait at all. In fact, come to think of it, the Imperialistic trait almost seems like the black sheep of the traits that was sneaked in or something (marketing wise). My ideas on who gets the Imperialistic trait: Isabella, Victoria, Genghis, Napolean, Julius (or Augustus) and Alexander. I think 6-8 leaders with the same trait seems balanced.
And finally, I am sooo interested in what all the leader's (old and new) traits/UB combos will be. I would love to find the strategy in them also. I just wish they would release a list or something of all the leaders and their traits and UB's.
Watiggi
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Carthage doesn't have two uus. It was a typo. Since it replaces Horse Archer, they referred to it as an Archer at one point. I'd be shocked if I'm wrong.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Maybe they don't like having uus replace new units (in Civ3, nothign replaced the Trebuchet, Medieval Infantry, or Guerrilla as a uu, the Berzerker, at the very least would have made sense replacing MDI).
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