New way of research

[Dr. Broom]

I don't like how research is now, research alphabet then writing then philosophy, etc. It is too linear and too predictable, what if you didn't select the research then finish it in c amount of turns and it was just encouraged in a way. You could hire scientists or research facilities and you encouraged it by how you led your civilization, for example if you go to war a lot then your scientists would research better ways to kill people while if you build a lot of temples, cathedrals and such your scientists would research ways to build grander buildings and raise your culture more if you seem to focus on having the newest equipment and best scientists then your researchers would focus on researching new ways of research. Your researchers should not produce a certain amount of research but instead they should vary and the older they are the more research they do but they should eventually die and be replaced. Civilizations would research their atributes faster for example Germany would discover scientific and militaristic technologies faster than other civilizations while the English would discover economic and sea travel technologies faster than anyone else.

This is just a rough idea so maybe people at firaxis can improve on this concept if it is used.

 

[judgement]

But I enjoy having direct control over what I research...

The very predictability and linearity that you complain about lets me plan ahead strategy-wise, and that's part of the game I wouldn't like to give up.

 

[Milan's Warrior]

Maybe publicly funded research should remain as it is now, but you could have some random discoveries from scientists-population in your town?

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

Civilizations would research their atributes faster for example Germany would discover scientific and militaristic technologies faster than other civilizations while the English would discover economic and sea travel technologies faster than anyone else.

I think that putting "flavor" in research will diversify more the already overdiversified by trait and flavor Civs and it will make IMHO for less interesting gameplay minimizing your options to the initial Civ choice: That choice will determine even more how you play the game...

 

[croxis]

This could tie in with adaptable civ traits tho that would adapt over time.

In SMAC, with the blind research setting on, on could select which of the four techonology categories they would like to research in. I enjoyed that style of gameplay I would like to see it back as an option.

 

[warpstorm]

I also liked the blind research option, It made it so that you could direct the general flow of research, but couldn't come up with the one true plan.

 

[searcheagle]

What about the civ being able to direct the thrust of military/ closely related government projects and the rest is left to the general public to create?

-science for spearman/legions/etc- directed by user

-public discoveries- blind research

The reasoning be that the government will fund projects that it deems important, but that public will fund the rest, and therefore direct them.

 

[Mgoering]

One more time ! Too detailed in my opinion. If you want your computer to overheat, because of millions of calculations per turn, up to you !

The tech tree is as logical as it can possibly be. Blind research option will only give you the techs that you can curently research for (like in Civ2 CTP). But if you notice it on your first play, you will be able to draw the tech tree. On your seond game, you will know what to do to get what you want. that's why they gave the tech tree on paper with Civ2 CTP and why the entire tech tree is revealed in Civ3.

The thing about been able to research new ways to kill your ennemy is already available ! First of all, after playing some games, you realise that you have to plan when you want to attack. So, you can plan your researches to be able to build the units you want to attack with. Secondly, if you enter in war or not, you can change the tech you research without loosing the research you made before (example : you researched Flight and are 3 turns away from it; however, you want to have marines; so, you change to Amphibious War; it takes you 5 turn to discover it; then you can return to Flight and discover it in the 3 turns you had when you left it.).

And finaly, can you please forget about the idea of public and private research ? Yes it is more realistic. Yes we do have this system in democratic gouvernments. But you have dozens of cities and undreds of citizens. And, last word, IT'S JUST A GAME !!!!!

 

[collin_stp]

man, a little testy aren't we? I didn't like the original idea, but I think with some types of improvements, it could have a little promise. And if not, it at least can make some interesting discussion.

I believe a simpler way is to incorporate your civ's attributes (or maybe evolving attributes, see other thread) into some techs having a lower cost. So, for instance, militaristic civs would have a lower cost for military tradition. This may incorporate some of the ideas of public/private, but in a simpler way.

 

[Dr. Broom]

Damn, Mgoering calm down. Yes it is just a game but why not make it better? Just so you know millions of calculations is cake to a computer it makes them all the time.

I am not proposing blind research I just think that it is too predictable which makes the game a little boring sometimes and I feel that research should go in the direction the player is playing in what i mean by that is if you go to war a lot you are more likely to discover gunpowder than music theory. So this way you can still easily guide your research by how you play but it does reflect how you play making each game more uniqe and making it more fun to test different playing styles. Also, I think the idea of private research by people or companies could be a great incorporation to the game. Adaptable civ traits as croxis suggested would also make the game more interesting but then it would minimize differences between civs to just their UU and culture group....unless firaxis adds some new defining factors to the game that is.

 

[maddman75]

Interesting idea Dr. Boom. Maybe each tech would have a type associated with it, such as Agricultural, Military, Industrious - like the Civ categories. The cost to research would be reduced for Civs with that trait, as well as a constant running score for how much you are like that trait. Maybe the bigger the military, the easier you can produce gunpower. If you've built roads on every square inch of your territory that gives you points toward Expansionist techs, making Steam Power cheaper.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

One more time ! Too detailed in my opinion. If you want your computer to overheat, because of millions of calculations per turn, up to you !

The tech tree is as logical as it can possibly be.

And finaly, can you please forget about the idea of public and private research ?

you don't mind if some people believe that they have the right to their own opinion? do you?
Anything goes if somebody thinks that is good fun for his game. There are hundreds of people in the forums and CIV is personal for everyone of them.
I for one agree with you but..(read my signature )

 

[BassDude726]

whoa now... a little hot in the kitchen, eh? Anyway, I think the research methods are pretty good the way they are, but some additions would be useful. The logical and linear progressions is realistic enough, and gives you the ability to direct your research, but some randomized events would be cool too.

I know these are represented already by the goodie huts, but scientists sometimes discover things by mistake. Like if you were researching fission, computers might become available because one of your smart little scientists needed something to make his calculations easier?

 

[zorven]

In SMAC, with the blind research setting on, on could select which of the four techonology categories they would like to research in. I enjoyed that style of gameplay I would like to see it back as an option.

I enjoyed that as well. That would be a welcome addition to Civ 4.

 

[GeZe]

There should be different tech trees, one for socity and one for economics. These would be researched by the people. military techs would be researched by the government.

my .02$

 

[croxis]

There should be different tech trees, one for socity and one for economics. These would be researched by the people. military techs would be researched by the government.

my .02$

I feel that would violate the KISS theory too much

 

[Dr. Broom]

There should be different tech trees, one for socity and one for economics. These would be researched by the people. military techs would be researched by the government.

my .02$

I like the idea of separate research factions, if you think about it governments pretty much only research something if it gives them a militaristic advantage. I still think we need to get rid of the whole tech tree idea though.

 

[Dr. Broom]

Just typing this hoping new people will put some posts up.

 

[ybbor]

please don't bump threads with nothing new to add or say, otherwise, if everyone did that everything would get lost. if disussion drops off, that means all there is to say has been said, you tated your idea and made you point, the people have spoken and decided thre was nothing more to say

 

[covenant]

Well I have something to say.... heheh......

the question seems to divide people on whether you want to know what your getting (to form your strategy) or the more realistic approach, that while you may have a general idea of what is around the corner, you still cant see all the possiblilties or applications.

So how about something in the middle...

What if on your tech tree you could only see say 10 years into the future, any tech that would require more than ten years you could not see and strategize for, but if it only took 5 years you would see it and be able to start building towards those tanks. You would see your tech tree unfolding before your eyes.

And it should not be just the tech tree. That is too specific, but an evolution in technology, thought and philosphy, social value, government, art, etc. Each a branch in a very dynamic matrix. You can then, using sliders, and bonuses for natural tendencies, decide where the percentages went in the above. But what you actually discovered would be a cumulative chance per round in each section. For instance you have 5% in this one and 20% in this one. Your spending much more on number two so the next round it was 40% likely to 8% likely. It would actually still be possible that you discovered both that round but neither is very likely. This very simple simulates the possiblilty of luck, breathroughs, an einstein appearing and so forth. And if you discovered like three techs in one round a golden age for a scientific civ.

But to really keep it blind in replayability, you would not always have the same tech tree. If there were many more steps on the tech tree, things were more gradual (say you discovered flight, then avionics, turbo prop, jet engine, etc or not just the spearman but the military strategy, after all many ancient civs came to power not simply by the unit but in the revolutionary way they were used) the tech tree could be huge, leaving you wondering how the tech world would look this game. So maybe some paths never opened up, you never found jet power, could not buy it and your spy got caught and executed for trying to steal it, so that that path just stopped. It adds importance to stealing because it may be impossible for you to discover it. Maybe you do not have a resource so you can study it (uranium anyone, so you discover they someone has it, steal it, and the discover the tech. This has happened numerous times in history and has caused the donwward spiral of many civs as a new civ with better ideas came forward.)

And as for unit upgrade and so forth due to the increase in techs, just make many automatic. Your tanks go form 6.3 to 7.3 to 8.4., etc automatically as you refine the technologies that would effect tanks: armor, more powerful arms etc. Only major jumps, would require an upgrade fee. (Although I hate upgrade fees, special sense you cann't just upgrade every unit at once like in SMAC.) The rest would be covered in normal maintence costs. Your paying alot to keep those soldiers with an nice new spear in 1500AD. Please. It would cost nothing to give him a gun (yeah maybe training, but considering that same spearman has been alive for 2000 years, I think I more than covered his training costs.)