News: COTM55 Pre-Game Discussion

[civ_steve]

COTM 55: Greece!

Things have been much busier this weekend than I expected. So the game will be delayed 1 day in starting. Since this is a quarterly difficult/special game, you'll have an extra week added to the end.

Can you believe we have never played as the Greeks in COTM! (nor as the Germans, but that's for another month.) So Alex is ready to take the field in his COTM debut. And it's on SID level! Good Luck!

A few extras to help the Greeks out. 1.) Of the 7 AI, 2 pairs will be at permanent war with each other. By this I mean Civ A is at war with Civ B, while Civ C is at war with Civ D. 2.) You've got a Pile of immobile advanced defenders on the chokepoint connecting your land with the continent. These will be Guerrillas for Conquest and Open, and modified Riflemen (with a 2 strength defensive shot) for Predator. Edit - OK, they don't count towards your unit support. 3.) You start with a bonus city, Sparta, which has a bonus barracks for Open and Conquest. Edit - changed to a Settler for all classes, and a bonus Worker for Open and Conquest . 4.) Your Hoplite gets a defensive shot of strength 1.

Civilization: Greeks
Rivals: 7 pre-selected
Barbarians: Restless
Difficulty: SID
Land Form: Continents, 60% ocean, Standard map.
Geology:3 billion years old, Normal and Temperate.
AI Aggression: Normal

I've changed getting a bonus city to getting a bonus settler. I'm maintaining the original image so that everybody has the visibility that was originally revealed.
Here's a picture of the Open/Conquest chokepoint

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

1. 
   2 Hoplites
   Masonry and Pottery for Free
   100 Bonus Gold
   Bonus Settler and Worker
   Chokepoint Defense of 5 immobile Guerrillas

Open-Class Bonuses
Bonus Settler and Worker
Chokepoint Defense of 5 immobile Guerrillas

Predator-Class Obstacles:

1. 
   No Bronzeworking
   Bonus Settler, no Bonus worker
   Chokepoint Defense of 5 immobile modified Riflemen (5,5,0) with (2,0,1) defensive shot

 

[AutomatedTeller]

That's tough. Without seeing the starting imagines, I'm assuming at least one of the towns has good food bonuses.

We have two competing short-term issues:

1) Getting pottery done so we have a granary
2) Gettin BW so we can get hoplites so the barbarians don't wipe us out.

 

[Kulko]

How is that tough? I mean apart from being SID?

As i have never played that level before, can somebody give me some hints.

- being first to Philo is out of question?
- Is a Lit Monopoly possible at least?
- With the Chokepoint well secured until Cav, can I afford to refuse AI demands early in the game?
- Any other things I should know?

 

[Più Freddo]

being first to Philo is out of question?

I have never played Sid, but I believe research is out of the question, basically.

 

[ignas]

We start with Alphabet so it is likely you can be first to philo and pick Monarchy as freebie. Rep slingshot is out of question probably.

Is a Lit Monopoly possible at least?

Sure it is possible, it is very likely you will be first if aim at it.

With the Chokepoint well secured until Cav, can I afford to refuse AI demands early in the game?

Depends on many circumstances, but probably not worth risking early if AI is nearby.

Any other things I should know?

It's the hardest level in civ 3

 

[Yilar]

uhhh, finally a Sid!

 

[ignas]

Predator Diplomatic challenge anyone?

 

[Lanzelot]

Good that I have two weeks vacation over Christmas...

Am I right to assume, that the chokepoint is called Thermopylae and the guys holding out there are Leonidas and his men...?

Kulko: I played one SID game so far, COTM43. It was a different kind of game (Archipelago), but I recommend to read the spoilers and pre-game discussion anyway. Because of that chokepoint the situation may be similar to archipelago.
Also read the article by SirPleb! (I think it's referenced in the COTM43 spoilers somewhere.

The main difference to COTM43 will obviously be: the AIs meet each other much earlier, so the tech pace should be faster! In COTM43 tech pace was actually astonishlingly slow, because all AIs were isolated on very small islands. Neo666 (and some others?) managed the full Republic slingshot. In this game however I doubt it will be possible. Best is probably lone scientist to Writing and then hope to be the first at Philosophy.

Sparta is probably going to be a very interesting settler factory, working only with flood plains and hills... That'll require some MMing...

Lanzelot

 

[Kulko]

With two productive cities on a river from the go isn't it better to go full scale research?

 

[Schalke 04]

Wow, that's going to be really interesting. I love the Thermopylae approach

SID is by far too much for me, but I think I will give it a try. I did quite good in COTM43.

Some assumptions / questions for this game, open for discussion


1. As we are (alone?) at an peninsula we should be somewhat safe from the AI. Guerilla (Defense = 6) standing on a mountain + fortress + fortification (defense = 16,5 ?) is worth more than an Infantry unit. If the AI attacked with all of its units, we would be doomed. But the AI usually doesn't do that, as it calculates the odds of a single fight. That's why armies are not being attacked by the AI. For how long will this prevent the AI from attacking our Guerillas? Till the Advent of Cavalry or earlier?

2. I'm not used to "no research" games. Normally I can outresearch my opponents at the latest in the middle of MA (Emperor). This even worked out in the COTM43 Sid game. However, this game will be different. Is it useful to research at all / build libraries?

3. I love my settler factories, and I understand the principles of it. However I have some problems in establishing these wonderful cities in areas of plains and deserts/floodplains, as I don't know how to manage the lack of shields correctly. Any good tips how to achieve a good factory in this game? Is a four turner possible?

4. I never played the greeks. I don't like their UU and this becomes worse for me under these conditions (SID...). It is difficult to prevent an early GA and difficult as well to use them to trigger a later one, because this unit sucks in the offense and defense as well by the time I want to trigger a GA.
Commercial is nice, but Schientific? I don't see an advantage in this trait. I think I don't build many research buildings and I doubt that I will be one of the first in a new age. Agrucultural would be much better, especially when I look at this disturbing desert around Sparta. But we have to handle the things as they are.

5. I think no wonders for me at all... Maybe later ToE and Hoover, but it depends on my progress in the game. Any other things to consider?

6. Constant war between some AI is interesting. However, I see the danger that some AI could become a runaway civ because of that. Don't know how to manage such a monster if it really appears...

7. How about city placement? I know it's difficult to discuss this without an appropiate view on the whole map / peninsula. But in general: Is a combination of CxxxC / CxxC too loose for SID? Are some CxC cities necessary (apart from farm cities)? Should I ignore the desert and better build the cities around it?

8. Is Republic out of the game? I can handle WW as a republic, but most likely NOT on SID... So I think Monarchy should be the best choice, especially as it is not a high research game for the human player

9. No doubt: in a battle of material we are designated to loose. So we have to produce tons of artillery. Are cats worth to build? More arty than soldiers?

10. My first concept of a strategy would be the following:
a. Establish factories for workers and settler
b. Warrior and curraghs for early scouting and military police
c. Build military as much as I can (Horseman and Swordsmen; I hope civ_steve doesn't leave us without resources on that peninsula). Barbs and Galleys will make life not easy. When discovered maths, then producing some cats as well.
d. Min research on writing, after that...hmm Hoping for good trades Really, I'm absolutely helpless under these conditions. Are there any trades possible, if I have nothing to offer? Will my cash be sufficient for trades? Early contact with the other continent will be critical for trading.
e. Trading up to Monarchy and revolt
f. Infrastructure: no libraries or other research buildings at all. Markets in nearly all cities for cash and happiness. Barracks in my core and Aquaeducts if needed. Maybe a temple or something like that if my people aren't happy enough, but not too much of that.
g. Developing my empire, building more military and hoping that I can find an appropiate "victim"
h. Victory Condition: diplomatic should be the easiest by definition. But I don't like that, so I have to choose another one. Cultural is truly out of choice for me on SID. I think I try domination with the option for space race if I cannot accomplish it.


Hope to get some answers / tips from the cracks...

 

[axehaxe]

I'm so going predator class on this, oh wait and I'll try one city challenge as well!

j/k

like..WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Sid level? holy...played deity before but

I've never played a Sid level game successfully before, I'm scared!!

Greeks? GOOD. Any other civ on Sid level would be asking for the definition of impossible.

I'm going conquest class and I am almost 75% sure I will die.

EDIT:

2 pairs of AI constantly fighting each other? ARE YOU INSANE??? Just thinking of the runaway AI that occurs as a result, makes me want to faint! I'm a bit little tempted to not...(can't finish the sentence).

 

[stvnjsph]

The higher levels are too much for me also but the conditions of this COTM does make it interesting to try. Historically, the Greeks are warriors and so building up the military first over city improvements like temple, barracks and libraries would be my priority strategy. I may try using a minimum of workers to build roads/trade routes to connect cities in favor of the military also. Go South and Southwest for a 2nd and 3rd city.

 

[eldar]

One thing about that chokepoint - it will be necessary to get a city on one of the hill tiles next to it, otherwise the AI will be able to demand our units move once the choke is within their territory.

There was a similar thing in an early COTM, there were Chinese Wall Guards but by planting a city right next to the wall, the guards could be moved without fighting them.

 

[Schalke 04]

I figured out how to establish a 5-turn-settler factory in Sparta with just one wasted shield per cycle. A lot of improvement work is to be done for that (flood plains and hills + 1 Oasis and Desert).

The problem is that the barracks in Sparta is close to senseless if this city works as a settler pump

 

[Kulko]

One thing about that chokepoint - it will be necessary to get a city on one of the hill tiles next to it, otherwise the AI will be able to demand our units move once the choke is within their territory.

There was a similar thing in an early COTM, there were Chinese Wall Guards but by planting a city right next to the wall, the guards could be moved without fighting them.

Are you sure our land is south of the choke? Although your argument still holds anyway.

 

[Kulko]

I figured out how to establish a 5-turn-settler factory in Sparta with just one wasted shield per cycle. A lot of improvement work is to be done for that (flood plains and hills + 1 Oasis and Desert).

The problem is that the barracks in Sparta is close to senseless if this city works as a settler pump

Well Athens ca work as a 6 turner. Unless there is some bonus hidden under the Fog 2NE of the spot. I can't say it looks like something specific, but the Form of the fog there is a bit suspicious.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'd almost assume there is wheat on one of those fogged FP.

With this sort of start and greece, I'd assume that research isn't out of line. writing/philo/lit works, writing/philo/CoL, then research republic works, there's a chance of writing/philo trade for polytheism and get monarchy working, as well.

The two pairs of AI at war will make things interesting - we will likely be fairly safe, but one thing that often happens on SID games is that isolated AI's start choking on unit upkeep and that won't happen.

 

[templar_x]

@ Kulko - won´t corruption probably kill the 6-turner in the 2nd city?

@ Schalke - how do you set up that 5-turner in Sparta? like this:
size 5:
+6f +3s
+4f +5s +2s
size 6:
+5f +5s
+3f +7s
+3f +7s +2
which requires 3 (!) mined hills and wastes 1f and 1s, right?!

that sounds tough to me...

 

[Kulko]

Well I have 3 overflow on the 6-turner if I want, so it depends on how much corruption there is. Also Steve said he doesn't want Sparta to be the capital, so I assumed Athens will be prefounded too.

 

[Schalke 04]

@ templar: OK, here we go:

you need:
1 mined oasis (o)
1 mined desert
4 irrigated floodplains (fp)
2 mined hills (h)

Size 5:
+4f +5s (3fp; 1h; 1o)
+4f +5s (3fp; 1h; 1o)
+2f +7s (2fp; 2h; 1o) +2s (mined desert)
Size 6:
+5f +5s (4fp; 1h; 1o)
+5f +5s (4fp; 1h; 1o) +2s (mined desert)

total shields: 31

I think this would work, but it's definitely tough in terms of tile improvement. MM is manageable though.

Athens as a capital and wheat under the fog would change everything of course. Btw: where is the save