Nine Ideas

[Phallus]

Why Shinto? If you want Japan to have a different religion to China, then introduce Buddhism before Confucianism.

 

[mitsho]

I wouldn't advocate doubling the number of religions, just dividing Christianity into two or three denominations. The other religions tend to be much less popular in RFC so I don't see a need to show their schisms.

Maybe it's just a political correctness thing?

[QUTOE=lumpthing]Also, I'd be very happy to dump Judaism and Taoism to make way for Christian denominations. So basically, the way I would want it, there wouldn't be a significant increase in the number of religions.[/QUOTE]

There's no need to dump them, as they nevertheless had some impact (but as a result I would advocate some sort of Inquisitor-unit, (anti-missionary)).

What's wrong with Protestantism/Catholicism being spread by missionaries? What do you mean by 'again'? Rhye has modded the way the current religions spread in RFC so I'm sure he'd be able to mod a schism so it behaves fairly realistically.

- double work
- again after spreading Christianity with missionaries. When Split occurs, which Christian cities turn into Catholic, which one into Protestant? Then go on: What with Orthodoxy, and what are the relations to each other...

But all on all, it certainly is possible to mod the schisms this way. And I would really advocate this inclusion (the 30-years war for example is interesting/important/etc.), just need to think of the balance. But I just don't like the bigger messiness this produces. Point, subjective opinion.

But I'm open to the idea of using civics to represent schisms, I just can't imagine what they would consist of if they are going to be vaguely based on history. Maybe somebody else can.

Is there a way to organize your church pacifistic? The original religion civics are also not really based on history. Renaming them is simple. The obsolete Pacifist civic can become the "Protestant one", protestant is quite a global term, so use it. If it's too Christian, use "progressive". Although this one is quite normative and not really descriptive, it's thinkable. Organized can become "Catholic" or more common "Orthodox".

Finally, it doesn't matter much, do what you want. It has been (!!) just a small input (and intermezzo) by me.

mitsho

 

[pinktilapia]

We have to make sure to at least include either Zoroastrianism or Judaism because otherwise we'll have a void of religion and culture in the Middle East which was historically not predominantly Christian before the rise of Islam and was indeed the cradle of Western religion (clear lines can be traced from Polytheism and Zoroastrianism through Judaism and Christianity to Islam, imho.)

I can't really agree with you on that one. The East was mostly Christian by the time Mahomet started preaching across Arabia. Antioch and Alexandria were centers of the Christian faith and the siege of 2 patriarchates, and the eastern part of the Roman Empire was much more Christianized than any other region of the world. Yes, it was mixed with pagan belief, but Christianity was already the official state religion and predominant in most large cities, as you surely know. Personally, I still think Greek (together with Roman, same thing) polytheism would very well fit in the mod, as there was a huge difference between the complex relgion of the Mediterranean compared to the pagan cults of the Celts and Germanics. Lots of difference. Plus, of course, antagonim should be promoted between 'civilized' Mediterraneans and 'barbarians' celts, if they appear in the next incarnation of RFC.

 

[OzzyKP]

Is there a way to organize your church pacifistic? The original religion civics are also not really based on history. Renaming them is simple. The obsolete Pacifist civic can become the "Protestant one", protestant is quite a global term, so use it. If it's too Christian, use "progressive". Although this one is quite normative and not really descriptive, it's thinkable. Organized can become "Catholic" or more common "Orthodox".

That is an interesting idea.

Organized Rel - Orthodox (or mainline)
Theology - Fundamentalist
Pacifist - Reform

Not a great mapping of course since what would be the difference between Catholic and Eastern Orthodox? Both would fit into the "Orthodox" category. Maybe Orthodox

 

[Phallus]

Lots of difference. Plus, of course, antagonim should be promoted between 'civilized' Mediterraneans and 'barbarians' celts

Time for some pedantry, I feel.

Antagonism between 'civilized' Romans who threw unwanted infants on rubbish heaps and 'barbarian' Celts who had a code of welfare for the orphaned, the sick and the elderly? Just because the Celts didn't build massive ornate temples it doesn't mean their religious system was somehow less complex than the Romans.

Now the discussion can continue.

 

[mitsho]

Personally, I still think Greek (together with Roman, same thing) polytheism would very well fit in the mod, as there was a huge difference between the complex relgion of the Mediterranean compared to the pagan cults of the Celts and Germanics. Lots of difference. Plus, of course, antagonim should be promoted between 'civilized' Mediterraneans and 'barbarians' celts, if they appear in the next incarnation of RFC.

You just pushed me onto something. We all agree that there wasn't "no religion" in the mediterranean and we therefore would want something in there. But "a Roman or Greek or whatever Polytheism" just doesn't sound like a religious belief, and it certainly wasn't ONE. But on the other hand there was something that was quite widespread besides that "henotheistic* state belief": Philosophy!
D'accord, Stoic, Sophistic and all those other streams were not really united, but they were what we would look at as "religions". Imho, most of the nobles didn't actually believ too much in the henotheistic world view, it was just tradition. But these philosophical thoughts could have as well (and in a way were) developed into some sort of monotheism (--> and all that follows). Why not thus replace "Mediterranean Polytheism" - if you really want to include it - into "Philosophical Thinking". a) it existed, b) it was widespread and c) The henotheistic and the state belief ideas are much better represented by the "Pagan temple" and the "pacifist or free religion civics".

Just my humble 0.02 €, mitsho

PS: Happy to see you here, pinktilapia. RFRE isn't finished yet, right? But I must say that this mod here is quite similarly (deterministic) organized as yours is.

*Mediterranean Polytheism is in fact Henotheistic all along!

 

[Blasphemous]

If you look at how the Protestant/Catholic schism affected diplomacy in Europe it was to do with basic tenets of belief, not civics/different ways of organising the state church.

Nobody said otherwise. The idea is to stretch the idea of Civics, and make RCs into state-endorsed views of the state religion.
We could have "Unofficial" as the starting RC, having no effects and forcing no-SR. Then we could have Codified, which would just be Organized Religion. Then we could have :
-Reformed - representing Protestantism, Conservative Judaism, and probably some other things. The effect may require some thought. Could be similar to Pacifism.
-Fundamentalist - representing Fundamentalist Christianity, Haredi Judaism, extreme interpretation of Islam, etc. The effects could be basically exactly the same as current Theocracy.
-Pluralistic - representing Reform Judaism and whatever progressive, pluralistic views of the other religions exist these days. The effect could be like current Free Religion. With this configuration it would make sense no matter whether we force no-SR with this option or not. If we choose not to force it, that's cool because a state that's very laid-back about its religion will get along well with states that just don't endorse any religion. If we choose to force it that's cool too, since a truly pluralistic state will not single out any religion as State Religion. What's for sure is if we don't force no-SR, it should be a choice under this option (unlike any other option.)
Now if we make this choice affect the diplo hit/bonus we would have much more variety in the whole religious-diplomatic equation, with relatively little direct effect on the rest of the game.
The diplo hit/bonus effect could go two ways. When you have a Brothers and Sisters bonus with someone, it should get -3 if you do not share the religion type with them as well (possibly removing the bonus but never turning it into a hit). When have a "heathen" diplo hit against someone, it should get +1 if you share the type. And Pluralist civs should just share a "we appreciate your appreciation of diversity" diplo bonus instead of all that. As Pluralists, they won't actually hate other civs for not agreeing with them. (This wink goes out to you, America.)
I'm beginning to like this idea a lot.

As to the renewed discussion of the Mediterranean religious situation, I think I need to rethink this issue a little now. I'll put my two cents in later on.

 

[McA123]

again after spreading Christianity with missionaries. When Split occurs, which Christian cities turn into Catholic, which one into Protestant? Then go on: What with Orthodoxy, and what are the relations to each other..

The solution to that problem seems fairly simple to me, although it might not be so simple to code... What cities split which way could be determined by which of them the country/state or whatever followed historically.

 

[Phallus]

D'accord, Stoic, Sophistic and all those other streams were not really united, but they were what we would look at as "religions". Imho, most of the nobles didn't actually believ too much in the henotheistic world view, it was just tradition. But these philosophical thoughts could have as well (and in a way were) developed into some sort of monotheism (--> and all that follows). Why not thus replace "Mediterranean Polytheism" - if you really want to include it - into "Philosophical Thinking". a) it existed, b) it was widespread and c) The henotheistic and the state belief ideas are much better represented by the "Pagan temple" and the "pacifist or free religion civics".

Sorry Mitsho but I don't think this can be passed off as a religion. Aside from the whole "philosophical thinking wasn't unique to the northern mediterranean" routine which I won't waste time on, the last thing philosophy could be is a state religion. It isn't just that it doesn't at all represent the complex belief system of the common people, but that it all too frequently clashed with it - throughout history (let's forget India for a second). In our case we're thinking of the classical world, so the two examples that came to my head were the Athenian court that sentenced Socrates to death for his uncompromising rationalism (which encroached on a territory that knew it couldn't stand up to critical analysis) and Nero's death-warrant for Seneca. While his state-ordered suicide had nothing to do with religion, it emphasizes the point that philosophy is built upon independent thought whereas many state-sponsored religions have openly identified rational thought as an enemy (among others, Martin Luther frequently spoke out against it).

If we were to include a religion for the classical world but replace henotheism with philosophical thought on the grounds that most intellectuals preferred it to plain literal henotheism, then we should replace Hinduism with Brahmanism and replace Christianity with Pantheism in the early game and Atheism in the later.

What else might you suggest?

again after spreading Christianity with missionaries. When Split occurs, which Christian cities turn into Catholic, which one into Protestant? Then go on: What with Orthodoxy, and what are the relations to each other..

This is another reason why Blas's suggestion for major/minor spread should be tested. It would set the scene for a delicate balance across Europe with the religion of the minority always bubbling underneath. Nice religious tension to break up the Euro love-ring.

 

[mitsho]

Nero killed many people, he didn't get rid of Seneca due to Philosophy. On to more common thinking. You agree that the henotheistic beliefs of the Ancient Mediterranean is totally not suitable as a religion? Good, so we have a lot of common ground already. The Philosophical thinkings are something different than what happened in India, I don't think it can be compared. But it is true, that there exists a huge bias towards the Greeks (and I might have fallen a bit into that trap) as can be seen easily if you go to any university...
I am sorry but I have to resent as I don't think I can back up myself (I really have more important things on my hand) and thus just have to give in. either way, I was just brainstorming.

mitsho

 

[pinktilapia]

Time for some pedantry, I feel.

Antagonism between 'civilized' Romans who threw unwanted infants on rubbish heaps and 'barbarian' Celts who had a code of welfare for the orphaned, the sick and the elderly? Just because the Celts didn't build massive ornate temples it doesn't mean their religious system was somehow less complex than the Romans.

Now the discussion can continue.

The 'brackets' in my last post were there on purpose.
There is no need for pedantry.
Compelxity on the other hand, we can discuss, although this has nothing to do with superiority.

 

[Phallus]

Nero killed many people, he didn't get rid of Seneca due to Philosophy.

As I might have implied before, it simply serves to show that philosophers and the state weren't really on the same wavelength.

On to more common thinking. You agree that the henotheistic beliefs of the Ancient Mediterranean is totally not suitable as a religion? Good, so we have a lot of common ground already. The Philosophical thinkings are something different than what happened in India, I don't think it can be compared. But it is true, that there exists a huge bias towards the Greeks (and I might have fallen a bit into that trap) as can be seen easily if you go to any university...

Well to be fair, Greek philosophy and Indian philosophy did run very different paths. In India there was very little distinction between philosophy and religion and breakaway religious sects were usually formed whenever a new philosophical school was established, so it's hardly surprising there's a bias towards Greece where it's easy to draw a line between the two.

I'd love to hear other suggestions for the classical world though. If we go with the "pagan temple" suggestion we could simply grant them the ability to build a unique 'pagan temple complex' so they're less eager to abandon their own religion.

 

[lumpthing]

I don't think that greek philosophy is comparable to religion either. It just didn't have that mass appeal.

I'm coming round to the denomination-civics that are being floated around here, I guess there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides. I still think denominations are better simulated by civ-religions, but I'm also not keen on a proliferation of Christian religions, and an ignorance that different Christian denominations are not different religions - e.g. in the real world, the orthodox and catholic denominations were happy to gang up on islam for the crusades.

 

[fearuin]

Hello everybody! It took me a while to read the whole thread... it's huge! But I formed an poinion about issues discussed here, and I will explain it briefly, because I haven't a lot of time now (my classes start in fifteen minutes):

1.- Judaism should stay, but its rate of spreading should be lowered.
2.- Adding Zoroastrism is fine, but it should have a low spreading rate, and UHV conditions should be change to increase in 1 the number of holy cities that persians should have.
3.- Is it possible to introduce in the mod some code that made the speed of rating through ages? This way ancient religions (zoro, judaism, confucianism, etc) would start to fade, when the modern (buddhism, islam and christianity) start to shine.
4.- I have a simple solution to the "national" polytheisms issue. Why not to introduce a national wonder buildable with mysticism that would be called "national myths" and would give "+1 happy face, + 2 culture, and +2 PX" (the benefits of a spreaded state religion) in every city with an obelisk? It should be needed 4 obelisks (because of game balance), it will become obsolete with Calendar (as obelisks do) and it will require to have "no state religion" and "paganism" as a civic? Maybe it will give some culture and GP punctuation because of making the city where is built some sort of holy city.

That way you have some sort of polytheism that would not be as a religion, but have the effects of having one. The old civs may adopt state religions later.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

In warlords version Judaism easily beats Christianity. In one try Whoel Europe was Jew, except Spain, which was Muslim.

 

[captain beaver]

In warlords version Judaism easily beats Christianity. In one try Whoel Europe was Jew, except Spain, which was Muslim.

Christianity has a though time in Warlords. For some reason, it is usually not founded by any civilizations and spawns in Jerusalem. Although it is historical, it empers its spread as it is confined to either a Jewish Persia or an Islamic Arabia. Very few european civs have access to it and convert to random religions. In vanilla, Christianity was usually founded by Rome/Greece/random barb city which allowed Europe to become chritianized rather quickly.

 

[NeoT]

I think Judaism must stay, is not so unhistorical that some civs convert to judaism, some medieval states did it (In Paradox´s Crusader Kings i saw some counties beign jewish in the black sea's coast). Also in the two warlords games that i have played (one on monarch and one on viceroy), christianity owned Spain, Rome, France, Greece, Germany, Scandinavia, Russia, England and Turkey.

I also think that some sub-religions (Like protestant christians, catholics an orthodox) should be added. Maybe when you are a certain religion and you discover a certain tech, you can choose an sub-religion. Each sub-religion would give you a specific bonus and in terms of relations it would increase relations only whit another civ that share your sub-religion, it wouldn´t affect relations whit civs of the same religion but different sub-religion.

 

[Phallus]

some medieval states did it (In Paradox´s Crusader Kings i saw some counties beign jewish in the black sea's coast)

The short lived Khazar Khaganate adopted Judaism but they did it mainly to avoid the wrath of Christian and Muslim kingdoms if they supported the unluckier side. In the game we can't simulate this as all religions dislike each other to the same extent, which is especially silly in Hindu-Buddhist relationships. Judaism should stay providing we completely revamp religion along previously suggested lines.

If we could agree on how to implement it, I also feel it would be worth investigating different relationship penalties for each religion as it could add an extra layer of strategy to the game.

 

[lumpthing]

I think Judaism must stay, is not so unhistorical that some civs convert to judaism, some medieval states did it (In Paradox´s Crusader Kings i saw some counties beign jewish in the black sea's coast).

But RFC is a scenario about major world empires, not short-lived micro-states in the middle east. In the context of RFC, jewish civs are completely unhistorical.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Yeah, in Crusader Kings it was a small, almost meaningless county in middle of pagans. So if in Paradox game something is small and puny, then it shouldn't exist in Civ.

But what NeoT said represents that Jew communities were across Europe.