Nine Ideas

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by lumpthing, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

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    First of all, I would like to repeat what everyone else has been saying: that this mod is truly awesome! I used to have plans of remaking my civ2 ‘Ascension of Europe’ scenario in civ4 but this mod is so much better than anything I had in mind that I see there’s no point! If it seems I’ve written a large number of suggestions here it’s only because I’m so inspired by this mod that I’ve been putting lots of thought into how it could be enriched even further.

    So here, in no particular order, is my humble list of suggestions for future amendments:

    1) Scandinavian civ
    I heard rumours of a Scandinavian civ being introduced in a future version. This would certainly be welcome as having Oslo and Stockholm effectively forming part of the English, German or Russian homelands (and in my game Spanish too!) just doesn't feel right. Scandinavia was briefly united as a single power under the Kalmar Union so a united Scandi civ would have some historical basis. Or they could be made the Swedish or Danish, the dominant powers of the region.

    2) No city freebies
    I realise that European expansion needs a boost but I really don't like the population and building freebies I get when I found any new city. Historically, the first European colonies were tiny, struggling outposts that took centuries to become true cities. In my game (as the English) they were immediately self-sufficient and quickly developed enough to start pumping out enough settlers and armies to colonise their continents on their own with no dependency on the mother country. I think this totally undermines the feel of the early colonial period, as well as the general civ-pleasure of building up your city from scratch.

    Couldn't expansion be boosted in some other way? Say by reducing city maintenance costs caused by distance from capital to encourage far-flung colonies?

    3) British, not English
    Rename the English the British. They really might as well be since Scotland flips immediately and the Welsh don’t exist. The ‘British’ empire has a much more historical feel than the ‘English’ empire.

    4) Portugal and the Netherlands
    Bring in the Portuguese and Dutch. In general I think the more civs the merrier as far as this scenario is concerned, - I had no intentions of buying the Warlords expansion before but if it means I get to play against more civs in this mod then I’m getting it :). But I really think the absence of these two civs is a big loss for a mod which simulates the big events of world history. They may seem overshadowed by Britain, Spain and France but both countries formed vast world empires that had a huge impact on global history. The colonial era just isn’t complete without them.

    5) Limit Sino-Japanese overseas settlement
    China, India and Japan like to colonise the South-East Asian archipelago and Australia/New Zealand, whereas in history, these areas were the preserve of native powers right until the Europeans started fighting over it. I don't know if this is possible but it would be nice if settlers were unable to enter ships. They could be outmoded by a later 'colonist' unit (perhaps arriving with galleons), identical in every way save that they can enter ships. This would ensure that only the more advanced civs could engage in colonisation. Civs that started overseas colonisation relatively early (the Romans perhaps?) could perhaps get their own colonists as unique unites with an earlier tech.

    6) Add independent cities in sub-saharan Africa and South-East Asia
    I wrote about this in another thread but I will repeat myself here for the sake of completeness... I would like to see more cities in sub-saharan Africa. At the moment this has the feel of the Americas or Australia, where European diseases destroyed already very sparse populations and meant colonization was mostly a matter of settlement rather than dominating existing populations. This was not the case with Africa, and I know there were many minor cities in the southern half of Africa. Maybe the same should also be done for the South-East Asian archipelago (Indonesia etc) as well, since they also had dense native populations.

    7) Remove Judaism
    I think something has to be done about Judaism. In my game, Rome was the first to have Judaism as its state religion and later this passed to Eygpt. This makes no sense if Judaism is assumed to retain its basic historical character. The truth is that a historically-accurate Judaism should not be in civilization because it is so linked to a particular ethnicity. The Roman Empire should never adopt Judaism as its state religion simply because it has conquered the religion’s holy city. I suggest replacing it with Zoroastrianism. Today Zoroastrianism is also tied to a particular ethnicity but I’m pretty sure this is a relatively recent practice and was not the case in its heyday. If we have to have Judaism, couldn’t we make it so that the Christian holy city is always the Jewish holy city? That way, civs would almost never adopt Judaism as a state religion after the discovery of Christianity.

    8) Christian schisms
    Splitting Christianity into Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy would be nice as it would cause greater conflict amongst the currently rather snug Europeans. I suppose if you did it for Christianity it’d make sense to do it for Islam and its two major divisions as well. Might be rather complicated to mod though if the schisms and holy cities were done realistically though.

    9) Add marathon speed
    Like many others I would love to play this mod in marathon speed, in order to get the most out of each era. It might be worth toning down naval speeds in such a case though, otherwise the world would be revealed very quickly. It would also be nice to limit early land exploration too but I can’t think how.
     
  2. Stellan_87

    Stellan_87 Chieftain

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    Thoose are indeed nice ideas, but about nr 4, 9. Im not sure if europe can hold anymore civilizations in those areas... the Portuguese and the Dutch would probably be destroyed pretty quickly if i can assume they would only have one city in europe?
    About nr 9, wouldnt that only be possible if you can change the speed in the game? or if the "ai autoplay" were playing in another speed?
     
  3. McA123

    McA123 Prince

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    Many of your ideas have already been suggested, or are being implemented.
    1.There will be a scandinavian civ.
    2. Well... I've gotta disagree here. They may have started out pathetically tiny and taken a long time to grow into cities, but one turn is 5 years at that period of the game, and so the growth would be quicker. Not to mention that because these cities are founded so late that they kind of need the extra help.
    3. A rather minor change, but I can't see why not.
    4. I mentioned this earlier in a different thread, and I would very much like to see them, but unfortunately, Europe is just much to small for these 2 civs. I agree they would make thigns a lot more interesting but I really can't see how they could ever be put in.
    5. I agree here. I dislike how the Japs always control all the islands and occasionally northern Australia, it thwarts European colonisation in the area.
    6. This might be happening. In the MC thread, the Berbers/Peninsula Arabs were in the top 5 MC's to be put in, but Rhye hasn't stated which MC's or even if there will be any MC's in Warlords.
    7. Complete historical accuracy isn't always necessary... I don't think there's anythign wrong with judaism at the moment. It's usually a small religion, unless you work to spread it. It's usually Greece/Egypt/Persia and possibly Rome's state religion early on, but they usually switch.
    8. Rhye proposed this earlier, but I'm not sure if he has any plans for it.
    9. Vishaing is working on that right now, in RFC++, check it out.
     
  4. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I basically agree with McA123 views.
     
  5. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

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    The religious schism idea will be reviewed some time after the warlords switch apparently, and I personally agree about the historical inaccuracy of Judaism. If it were replaced with Zoroastrianism, you'd no longer have a Hindu Persia or a Jewish Egypt, Greece and Rome.

    The Berbers are completely irrelevent to Sub-Saharan Africa anyway.

    On that point they had little to do with cities either. ;)
     
  6. SadoMacho

    SadoMacho spanker of civilizations

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    I think Judaism should represent the jewish people. They were to small to be a civ in CIV, but they had a lot od infuence in history. Judaism should be a state religion.
     
  7. Samael

    Samael Warlord

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    Wouldn't having different religious civics count something like that? Same religion, different way of handling it and its beliefs and so forth? If your religious civic differs too much from those with the same religion, you could endure a diplomatic penalty (if you share the same civic though it boosts your 'Brothers in Faith' diplo bonus).
    If individual sects are represented by full-blown religion, you could place the Holy City in the Capital City of the founding nation of the 'schism' (which, for instance, might put the Vatican in Rome in the case of Roman Catholiscism though I don't know enough about Orthodoxy to be honest). Personally though, I think different religions should have different bonuses; I don't feel that a simple diplo bonus/malus is enough...

    Oh, and on the subject of putting cities in the Americas where, historically, there were no cities but tribes, this could perhaps be represented by the Camp Units from the Mongolian scenario, to generate units or pre-placing effectively toned down 'cities' that are auto-razed on capture. This would give them defensive points and the ability to train units and so forth (as well as exert a decent amount of culture and control over the surrounding lands). These cities wouldn't be able to build workers or settlers (to prevent them building new cities or improvements where there should be none) but they would start on a resource or something that would only be known to those with the appropriate tech (Native American tech given to this side -be it nation, minor nation or barbarian) at the start. Each resource would be relevant to the tribe or culture it represents and allow them to train an appropriate unit. To prevent clogging up of the Civopedia though, these resources would not have entries in the main page (though might have references on the specific units pages). Perhaps if you did destroy these cities, it would give you the Tech required to see them and access certain unique units (eg Tomahawks, Sioux Riders, etc.) that could be trained if you connected up the 'resource' to a city on the same continent (or that had the resource in its city radius).
    That said, I'm in favour of making the Iroquois a civilization in the game.
    Hopefully all that might make colonisation a bit more interesting. Now all we need's a good way to have a bit of Civil War.
     
  8. lumpthing

    lumpthing generic lump

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    Sorry to have posted suggestions tht have already been made. I did actually know that 1, 3, 8 and 9 had been proposed by others, I was just throwing in my support for them.

    On my current game, France has three cities in historical France and Germany has three cities in historical Germany. There is one city, Aachen, on their borders which they like to fight over. This city could easily be replaced with a big fat Dutch city.

    As for Spain, it has a whopping five cities in the Iberian peninsula. One of these cities is Faro, controlling historical Portugal. So there is already space enough for Portugal and it is already represented on the map. Bringing it in is not going to significantly hurt Spain.

    A one-city homeland would certainly be a challenge, but I think it's feasible if the surrounding terrain were beefed up. This would particularly make sense for the Netherlands, since the Lowlands was an exceedingly rich region in medieval Europe. Having just one european city would at least allow defence to be concentrated and I'm certain that human players would be able to make powerful empires using these one-city countries.

    If Portugal and the Netherlands did come in, it might be worth putting a barbarian city in Ireland and maybe stopping the Scotland flip, just to give England a bit of a harder time.

    Another advantage of having more civs in is that it would increase competion for resources and the importance of trade.

    But if you can have greater historical accuracy while gameplay remains identical and very little effort is required to implement it then why wouldn't you change? The Jewish missionary graphics and sound could be kept (no-one knows what ancient Zoroastrians looked like anyway) so all that would be necessary would be a change of symbol and a few text edits. I'd be happy to do it myself.

    It'd be nice to have the Jews as a civ in standard Civ4 but I don't they should be in RFC as they occupied such a small area.
     
  9. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    About Judaism, I´m curious about how many countries had it as a state religion?

    Personally I don´t care either way if it´s in or not, but I began to wonder this...
     
  10. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    well I can only name one.
     
  11. Phallus

    Phallus Freudian Slip

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    I had no idea SadoMacho felt so strongly about minor scripting in a game. It was suggested that Judaism was replaced with Zoroastrianism because it makes this mod a little bit more accurate than it was before. Funny how accuracy is the most important factor until someone dares mention religion.

    I'm sorry, but what you said makes no sense. For one, this is a game, and why do the Jewish people need any more representation in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization than the followers of the Malaysian teapot cult or Asatru pagans?



    That's very vague reasoning - a lot of communities have had influence in history. Jewish communities may have spread to many parts of the world, but so have Sikh communities and I don't see anyone protesting at how Sikhism must be included in every single mod "to represent Sikh peoples". Judaism may have been the ancestor of two major world religions that have left a very bloody mark on history, but Judaism itself has remained a small religion and it has only ever been the state religion of Israel. While it is true that the Jewish people have a long and distinct history, a lot of this history involves persecution from their Christian hosts and exploitation from their Muslim hosts. If this makes them influential enough to warrant inclusion in a brief game charting world history from the perspective of the most powerful civilizations, then where are the Mormons?

    Zoroastrianism, like Judaism, is an ancient religion with a strict code of laws which shaped later religions. Unlike Judaism, Zoroastrianism was for a long time the state religion of Persia and spread from India to Azerbaijan. Sassanid rulers were particularly clingy to Zoroastrianism when it came to the rise of Islam, and while Zoroastrianism only belongs to a few isolated communities today, their history is just as important as that of the Jews.

    However, the factor that tips the balance for Zoroastrianism is that the historical influence of Judaism in the real world has little relevence to their historical influence in this mod. There is no 9-tile kingdom of Israel and there are no religions to represent the traditional beliefs of Egypt, Greece and Rome. If we were to replace Judaism with Zoroastrianism (which is not likely to happen anyway), we would kill two inaccuracies with one script - Persia is no longer Hindu, and the civs of the ancient mediterranean are no longer Jewish.
     
  12. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I think that would be a good idea, it would also add religion to what is going to be a very crowded area
     
  13. McA123

    McA123 Prince

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    I don't really care whether it's judaisim or zoroastranism (I think I spelled that right), whichever makes more sense. Although, to the best of my knowledge, zoroastrianism didn't spread much outside of the Mid-East. Still, though that's a lot more area then Judaism.
     
  14. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I agree. Also I think something should be made about the eastern religions, as there are too many of them compared to west ones. If feels very unbalanced, as there are more civ west than east in the game.
     
  15. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I agree also, 4 religions for 3 civs? then one religion for 7 (8 with warlords)
     
  16. SilverKnight

    SilverKnight Prince

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    I wholly support amendments 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7. :D Also, some tiny cities in to Russia's east/Mongolia's west, as well as some in old Turkistan, would be realistic and fun for the mentioned civs, as well.

    SilverKnight
     
  17. Tom Veil

    Tom Veil Warlord

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    1. The 12 tribes
    2. Beta Israel in Ethiopia had off and on independence
    3. Cochin, India had a Jewish principality for much of its history
    4. There were several in Arabia before the rise of Islam
    5. The Khazar kingdom in Russia lasted a few centuries.

    There might be more; I'm not an expert in Jewish history.
     
  18. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

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    I am for swapping it for zoroastrianism for better gameplay, more historical accuracy and that it is reletivly easy to change.

    and you list hardly qualifies it as a major world religion...
     
  19. Tom Veil

    Tom Veil Warlord

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    And zoroastrianism has been the state religion of HOW many nations? If we're going to remove Judaism, we should replace it with a religion that has a sustained influence on mankind, like Animism.
     
  20. Hitti-Litti

    Hitti-Litti Deity

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    Zoroastrianism would solve two problems, Hindu-Persia and Jew-Europe. Animism would solve only Jew-Europe.

    If we have Zoro or Animism, there should be an option to remove religion from a city. There aren't many animists or zoros in present world.
     

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