Nine Ideas

Though I agree that Daoism could be replaced by another religion, I don't think disabling Jewish missionaries would make much of a difference to how things currently play out. Judaism tends to spread fairly well without missionaries and within twenty or so turns Egypt, Greece, Rome and sometimes Persia are all Jewish (Egypt captures Jerusalem or Judaism spreads to Athens, etc).

(though it's a bit difficult to know what should count as India since for most of history it has been no more united than Europe).

I feel this strengthens the case for their colonies. The Hellenic world was identified by culture rather than politics, after all.

So that's my second problem. You point out that you could improve Persia by adding Zoroastrianism. But what of Egypt, Rome, Greece, Aztec, Japan, Mongolia, and Inca? They all, at their peaks, had state religions that are not present in the game, too. I don't see why we should give Persia their state religion and not give all these other nations theirs.

Please remember

5) It would also fix the inaccuracies of a homogeneously Jewish mediterranean and a Hindu Persia.
 
I think we should first see how the game develops with all the new warlords civs (Babylon especially).

Though I agree that Daoism could be replaced by another religion, I don't think disabling Jewish missionaries would make much of a difference to how things currently play out. Judaism tends to spread fairly well without missionaries and within twenty or so turns Egypt, Greece, Rome and sometimes Persia are all Jewish (Egypt captures Jerusalem or Judaism spreads to Athens, etc).

Reducing <iSpreadFactor> for Judaism in Religions.xml should have the intended effect. Although everything depends on how fast Jerusalem is conquered and by whom.

Replacing Taoism with Zoroastrianism sounds nice but we must connect it to the right technology which will be difficult if we want Persia to found it. China will always beat Persia to Mathematics, Code of Laws and Calendar. Maybe Monarchy could work because its a start tech for Persia and no civ should have Monarchy at this point.
 
Replacing Taoism with Zoroastrianism sounds nice but we must connect it to the right technology which will be difficult if we want Persia to found it. China will always beat Persia to Mathematics, Code of Laws and Calendar. Maybe Monarchy could work because its a start tech for Persia and no civ should have Monarchy at this point.

I seem to remember Total Realism pairing Zoroastrianism with Dualism. This would make sense, but if it were structured in the same way Islam is right now, it wouldn't be much of an issue anyway.
 
captain beaver said:
On the religion point, I would like to propose another solution. Keep Judaism because it was and still is an important religion much like zoroastrianism. As you said, there are still small communities of followers in Iran, but there is an even bigger one in Israël for the Jews (lets not go into the "Jews only came back recently", as it means they were simply more dispersed before). However, Judaism shouldn't be able to build missionaries, which fits perfectly with its character. With this modification, whoever founds Judaism will only have a local religion with few cities with it. Consequently, it is doubtful that many civs would be able to adopt Judaism as a state religion as it will probably be confined to a handful of cities in the middle east.
As of Zoroastrianism, it would probably better to remove taoism and then implement zoroastrianism. There are 4 religions in the east for 3 nations. And msot of the times, India is Hinduist while Japan and China are Confucianists. Removing Taoism wouldn't be that big a loss and it would add a much needed religion in the west as most of the times ,you end up with one big homogenous religion block over there (mainly Christians vs Arabia).

As Phallus points out, this still wouln't stop Judaism from becoming various empire's state religion. Your solution of a restricted Judaism would still be better than the current situation though.

As for Taoism, it was at least the occasional state religion of China. But I agree, the fact that it almost always appears in China, after Confucianism, means that in RFC it doesn't do much. I'd still rather get rid of Judaism and, if Taoism goes too, replace with Protestantism, since the Catholic-Protestant split had a much bigger impact on world politics and the civs included RFC, and would spice up gameplay.
 
lumpthing said:
... replace with Protestantism, since the Catholic-Protestant split had a much bigger impact on world politics and the civs included RFC, and would spice up gameplay.

Now THAT is a change that I would wholeheartedly support. I could still make some nitpicks (both Jesus and Muhammed have been called protestant Jews, a label that's especially puckish for Muhammed, but still an interesting term; Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism have all had major splits, although of course none were as violent or produced the same intellectual flowering as Christianity's) but I really think it would add tons to game strategy and realism.
 
lumpthing said:
As Phallus points out, this still wouln't stop Judaism from becoming various empire's state religion. Your solution of a restricted Judaism would still be better than the current situation though.

As for Taoism, it was at least the occasional state religion of China. But I agree, the fact that it almost always appears in China, after Confucianism, means that in RFC it doesn't do much. I'd still rather get rid of Judaism and, if Taoism goes too, replace with Protestantism, since the Catholic-Protestant split had a much bigger impact on world politics and the civs included RFC, and would spice up gameplay.

No missionaries and with its already low spread rate will make Judaism confined to a few cities. Sure, initially some states will adopt it, but as more vigorous religions (in terms of spread rate) come in play, it should gradually become a religion with a few isolated cities. However, we still want to allow unhistorical scenarios where Judaism might have somehow spread a lot more. The "What if..." is at the core of Civilization. Of course, in RFC, we would like to stick more closely to history. Thus, the best would be a scenario where most of the time, Judaism is just an annoyance when you want to spread your religion, but from times to times, you can get suprised with a Jewish middle-east/europe.

As for Protestantism, this would be a great idea especially for Europe. At one point, Rhye did ask if we would like to have a relious split if a religion was a state religion for more than 3 civs. I think he said that it wouldn't take the place of existing religions, which is nice. However, I think the idea was dropped due to complexity. Anyways, it would certainly be welcome.
 
I dont agree with a religion that is thier purely to be an annoyance when many much more significant civs that would have a larger effect on gameplay arn't included...
 
A religous schism if more than 3 civs have it as a state religion.

That sounds very cool. Complex, but a good way to introduce variety. This function may even be at the heart of generating current religions like Taoism and Islam (and any other for that matter).
 
At one point, Rhye did ask if we would like to have a relious split if a religion was a state religion for more than 3 civs. I think he said that it wouldn't take the place of existing religions, which is nice. However, I think the idea was dropped due to complexity.

I thought it was postponed for later consideration, but either way the concept was great and it's worth exploring again.

However, we still want to allow unhistorical scenarios where Judaism might have somehow spread a lot more. The "What if..." is at the core of Civilization. Of course, in RFC, we would like to stick more closely to history.

In most cases I agree, but one reason I prefer Rhye's and Fall to vanilla is that it mostly eliminates the fundamentally unrealistic "what if" scenarios like "What if the Aztecs founded Buddhism in 3000 BC?". Judaism becoming a dominant religion of the classical world is only marginally less unlikely than this sort of example, so ideally I'd like to see it replaced by something a little more active and a little less stable, like Zoroastrianism.
 
A religous schism if more than 3 civs have it as a state religion.

That sounds very cool. Complex, but a good way to introduce variety. This function may even be at the heart of generating current religions like Taoism and Islam (and any other for that matter).

I think it should be possible to have many countries following your religion if you try hard, how about only one schism per religion? I am just worried that it will become a disinsentive to spread your religion to much, which would be highly inacurate....
 
and they should have a positive "you are at war with a heathen civ" modifier to prevent protestant allies of islamic civs fighting catholics for example
 
I agree with the diplo modifier (the more the better here imho) however I do not understand what your saying after that, could you please rephase?

OT; also Rhye (or anyome else) what happened to my idea about more diplo bonuses a while ago about giving cities back? are they being added?
 
Wow, it's been a while. After over a month, I'm back. Why was I away? Well, like I've mentioned on occasion, I only have Internet access on weekends, and in the last month I've been out a lot even on weekends and when home I was still exceptionally busy. Mitsho, with whom I correspond via email, will attest that it took me several weeks to write a two-paragraph reply to a discussion we've been having (and no, the fact that it was in German is not the only reason. ;) )
Anyhow, it's great to be back, and I'll have regular 'net access from now on so I can both keep this up and get testing again. I've read this whole discussion (you know I can't resist a thread titled "Nine Ideas"!) and of course I'm bubbling with ideas of my own.

First of all, I am all for adding Zoroastrianism. Adding, not replacing Judaism with it. It's not that I feel incredibly attached to the Jewish religion (for an ethnic Jew, at any rate), and some of you may recall how strongly I opposed adding Israel to RoX back in C3C. It's just that Judaism really does fit in very well with the cIV religion system. And besides:
lumpthing said:
there have long been Jewish communities all over Europe, but it's never come anywhere remotely close to be being the official religion and it's difficult to imagine an alternate history in which it did (unless its character were radically altered).
Phallus said:
Christianity only rose to prominence in Rome through pure chance.
Too quotes opposed to the inclusion of Judaism that bring up great points for its inclusion even if that means it becomes a state religion:
a. Judaism could very well have had a very different character in its early days. Let us recall that some early Christian sects were very pro-feminine and that they nearly won in the struggle for intra-religious dominance. They ended up losing and Christianity viciously oppressed women, femininity, and sexuality for centuries to come, but it could have been otherwise. I have not studied the subject in-depth, but I know for sure that today's Judaism shares very little with the faith of Moses and his people. I know of nothing to indicate that the more evangelical sects in Judaism (which are still around today, btw) could never have risen to dominance. So it's actually an incredibly exciting and realistic what-if, not at all a wild piece of fictional nonsense.
b. Just like Christianity rose to power pretty much on the whim of a single monarch, so could Judaism have dominated Europe by a fluke.
Anyhow, this discussion makes it almost too obvious that the religion system requires some (heavy?) tweaking, and I am, of course, all too ready to brainstorm on the matter. Here I go:

1. Big idea: Major city religions
Spoiler :
It's almost obvious. After all, every region has one or two, maybe three or four, religions which are dominant, and almost always some isolated communities belonging to different faiths, with little political influence. This has always bothered me in Civ - if a religion enters a city, it's suddenly treated as completely equal to each religion already present. So how about we make a system which differentiates between a city's major religions and the religions that are simply present? This isn't really all that complicated. We don't have to have an actual shifting ratio of believers between different religions in the city. There will simply be a few points where a religion's status can be altered. The whole thing can also be displayed in a very simple, intuitive way: major religions will have icons about 125% the size of current religion icons, and minor religions will have icons about 75% the current normal size. Neither size will be too big for the interface, and the different is big enough for anyone to easily notice. So let's see at what points status can be altered:
a. When a new religion enters a city
For each city in the empire where the new religion is major, that religion will have a 10% chance of starting as major immediately as it enters the city. Add to that 1% for each foreign city where the religion is major. If the religion is that city's state religion, double the chance. The maximum chance should be 95%, so you still sometimes get some isolated areas where the empire's major religion is not so dominant.
As to the existing religions in the city, if the new religion start as dominant, each existing dominant religion should have 25% chance of becoming minor immediately. Each minor religion should have a 10% chance of becoming major. (All due to the sudden cultural upheaval in the city.) If the new religion starts as minor, each existing religion has a 5% chance of swapping status.
b. When a city swaps hands
Whenever a city is traded or conquered, the upheaval should cause changes in the religious power balance within the city. This is a bit tricky and complicated. First of all, the new controller's state religion should have a good chance of going major (30%?). Additionally, if the new controller is using Theocracy or Organized Religion, existing major religions should have a good chance of going minor (20% each OR, 40% each Theo?). Lastly, the upheaval should generally cause some changes - a small chance (5%?) for each religion to swap status. Perhaps these three effects should be combined and remixed.
c. When religious improvements are constructed
Whenever a city receives a new religious building or wonder, that improvement's religion should have a chance of going major, and other religions should have a chance of going minor. The chance should be based on the improvement (wonders should be very influential, cathedrals less, temples even less) and major religions should be rather unlikely of going minor because of this event.
c2. A tiny chance of status swaps should exist whenever a city produces a missionary because it means that city is endorsing a certain religion. The chance should be a universal 1% for each religion to switch, or something along those lines. Building armies of missionaries will make a difference, building one or two usually won't.
d. When state religion changes
Whenever state religion changes, all cities in that empire should have a good chance of seeing the new state religion going major (40%?) and the other religion going minor (20%).
e. When Civics change
When the religious Civic is changed to Theocracy, all non-state religions should have a 30% chance or even more to go minor, and the state religion should be extremely likely to go major all across the empire (60%?).
x. Dying religions
Optionally, when a city gets a new dominant religion (either from a swapped minor religion or from a new religion bursting onto the scene), existing minor religions should each have a chance to just disappear from that city. This way when a religion suddenly starts to prosper it will slowly kill old religions.
y. Push to determinism
Optionally, some religions could have an inherent bonus or malus to their chances to go major. This way Judaism could be made more unlikely to go major over a large area, and Islam could be made very dominant. This would actually be a very good solution to the problem of Judaism as a multi-national state religion.
z. The Holy City effect
In a religion's holy city, that religion should always have half the chance to go minor and twice the chance to go major. In fact, when a religion is founded it should be founded as a major religion in its holy city. By the half-and-double effect later on, the religion will mostly stay major in that city (except for scarce and brief periods of minority).
w. Free Religion
Under the FR Civic, we may want to make all the empire's religions automatically minor for as long as the Civic persists.

Of course all of this is meaningless if there are not special effects to the difference between major religions and minor ones:
a. First and foremost: political weight
Basically, major religions will be given way, way more weight in considering the selection of state religion. That will already do a hell of a lot to improve realism. A major religion should weigh in at least five times as heavily as a minor religion - Christian Rome flukes will be possible, but not likely. Usually a civ will select as state religion that religion which is actually dominant in its cities. As a side note, the calculation of religion spread should give major religions the same relative weight as they get in consideration of state religion.
b. Happiness
Major religions should make the people happy, minor religions should not. Minor religions are too small to make people happy on a scale that can be shown in this game. The exception is Free Religion where the diversity itself should make people happy (in principle).
c. Construction
Major religions should get their buildings and wonders a bit quicker than minor religions. This will not only make major religions more important, but will also help preserve the status-quo by making it harder to build the minor religions' buildings (which would upset the religious power-balance.)
d. Unit production? (Patriotism)
It might make sense to give a tiny (5%?) malus to build speed on units in cities where the state religion is minor. This would just be a way to show that the major religions, when excluding the state religion in a given city, would be less cooperative.
e. Trade routes (the counterbalance)
To balance all this, for every three minor religion in a city, that city could get one extra :traderoute:, representing the connection with the minor religions worldwide. This would make it like in real history - rulers often grudgingly tolerated minor religions because the people of those faiths benefited society in some way.

Finally, to make it all come together, all religions would have to spread much faster, because that way you get most religion all over the place, but not so often as state religions. This is the essential problem in the current model: you can't show how far religions have spread without screwing up the international power-balance.

A quick reminder: Different styles of spread
I won't even put this in a spoilerbox because it's so short:
As I've said on occasion in the past, religions don't have to have different bonuses and maluses; they just have to spread in diverse ways. Some religions should be evangelical, some should be popular along trade routes, some should stay put and spread only when people are forced out of their homes (as with Judaism). Think on it.

A little big idea: Stately religions
If we don't want to go with as big a project as the major-minor religious dichotomy, we could just set for each religion a modifier for how much rulers will like it as state religion. Again, Islam should be a very likely choice, while Judaism and Confucianism should generally be confined to just sitting there without being the rulers' choice. (I recall something about Confucianism actually encouraging resisting the control of authority, a very unlikely trait for an official state religion.)

And finally, a little idea which has nothing at all to do with religion:
Expansionist moods
Instead of trying to stop the East Asians from colonizing, how about a system where periodically (each time a civ enters a new era) civs receive a new mood for their expansionism. Civs would always start briefly expansionistic, to secure a homeland, but then some would become isolationist and stop building settlers and ships, while others would try to colonize the far reaches of the Earth. And these moods would come and go. Each civ could have a tendency towards different moods, but the AI would change its style of expansionism every now and then, making the game more interesting and, I daresay, realistic.

I am, literally, sick and tired, so I will go against my very good habit of proofreading anything I post online, because I just don't have the energy to read all of what I just wrote. I hope it's still good.
 
Wonderful suggestions, Blasphemous. I still doubt Judaism could come to dominate Europe as, though Christian dominance of Rome wasn't very likely, it still adjusted some of its characteristics to appeal to Hellenic and Roman peoples (and later did the same thing to gain both Celtic and Mesoamerican enthusiasm). Either way, I'd gladly support its inclusion if your ideas were implemented. Among other things, your ideas for the balance of religious influence would be perfect for Rhye's schism proposals (imagine how well it would work with a tense post-reformation Europe), so we should give them a try.

This is the essential problem in the current model: you can't show how far religions have spread without screwing up the international power-balance.

I particularly agree with this. If your major/minor adjustments were implemented, civs without a represented religion wouldn't immediately seize upon the first chance they get to convert (even if it makes very little sense like the surprisingly common 'Confucianism in Russia' scenario).

(I recall something about Confucianism actually encouraging resisting the control of authority, a very unlikely trait for an official state religion.)

Are you thinking of Daoism? Though Confucianism was initially viewed with suspicion, it later placed heavy emphasis on the state and became entangled with the Mandarins and other figures of political authority. Daoism on the other hand remained pretty distant, and though the Dao De Jing frequently advises rulers on how to rule effectively, it usually does so by helpfully telling them not to rule. To over-simplify things; though Confucian scholars were at first victims of state-sponsored book burnings, they eventually became important enough to issue their own.
 
It surprises me that I confused anything to do with Taoism because I am very sympathetic towards that belief system (as little as I know about it), but if you say what you say I am inclined to believe you without further research. :)
 
Back
Top Bottom