Nine Ideas

[NeoT]

What i said is that is not unhistorical that great empires adopt judaism, some nations (even if they were puny and unimportant) did it in reality. The problem is that no civilization wanted Judaism because they believed in their own religion (that was much more spreaded in their countries than judaism), and this religions are represented in civ by having no religion. So having "no state religion" represents that the nation has their own mithology as a state religion (except if you have free religion). What should be made is that having no state religion should give a bonus of 25% more gold in every city whitout religion (or something like that), that would make that civilizations would prefer some times to remain whitout state religion instead to converting to a religion that is only in one of their cities. That and making judaism spread slower could do the job of lowering the probabilities of a civilization to convert to judaism. Also an inquisitor unit could be added, that way the civs could also kill the followers of a religion in their cities (like what happened in spain whit the jews, or whit christians in the roman empire or jews in nazi germany).

 

[kairob]

I dont see the point in a religion that we have to cripple to keep accurate, if juedaism is in then most 'minor' religions should be but with real bad spread rates, like sikhism, voodoo, etc..

 

[kairob]

Neot, I like this idea, an incentive to stay "pagan", all you would have to do is give the pagan civic some kind of bonus, (like you suggested, or +1 culture in the city to represent the religion). That and some "pagan" building...

 

[fearuin]

4.- I have a simple solution to the "national" polytheisms issue. Why not to introduce a national wonder buildable with mysticism that would be called "national myths" and would give "+1 happy face, + 2 culture, and +2 PX" (the benefits of a spreaded state religion) in every city with an obelisk? It should be needed 4 obelisks (because of game balance), it will become obsolete with Calendar (as obelisks do) and it will require to have "no state religion" and "paganism" as a civic? Maybe it will give some culture and GP punctuation because of making the city where is built some sort of holy city.

Is this enough? As I explain above, this way pagan civs can be "powered" as if they have a religion, just by building this wonder. Some civs will quickly move to state religions, when they have more cities with a specific religion that obelisks built. But others will be less encouraged to do so, until the diplo bonus (or malus) makes rather bad to stay as pagan, or until the benefit dissappears.

In the actual state of things, if you have a city where any religion is spreaded, then it's better to convert than not to do it. Even if it's to Judaism (what usually is the case of Egypt, Greece and, less times, Rome). But this way, a civ might want to stay pagan for a while.

Other way to do it can be give a benefit for staying pagan AND without state religion. A +1 and +1 culture in every city, for example. This represents the happines of the people to make the cult to the gods they want, and the benefit in terms of culture to that "non-state cults".

But I think the first solution it's better because it reflects more accurately the nature of "developed paganism" as a primitive religion. Not too developed to spread, but enough to give some benefits.

 

[kairob]

yeah fair enough, lets see what other people think

 

[McA123]

I don't see the point. If you take away the incentive to convert to religions, then what's the point of even having them? I'm also pretty sure that civs didn't cling to paganism, they were usually forced to convert, or chose to for political reasons, or sometimes combinations of the two. The point is, in the end, civs all wound up with some form of religion. And if this were to last up after the spawn of the Europe civs, then they're not going to convert to christianity, or on those rare occasions, something else. I really dont agree with this at all, but if everyone else is for it, the bonus definitely shouldn't be +25% commerce, it should be something small, and very insignificant, like +1 culture.

 

[captain beaver]

I'm also pretty sure that civs didn't cling to paganism, they were usually forced to convert, or chose to for political reasons, or sometimes combinations of the two. The point is, in the end, civs all wound up with some form of religion.

I have to disagree here. Paganism is a form of religion. It is simply a basket word to represent everything from Greek polytheism to Aztec mythology to any modern day sect. The fact that a civs chooses not to convert from paganism to christianity/islam/judaism/etc is historical. Giving up your own belief is not that easy to do.

I really dont agree with this at all, but if everyone else is for it, the bonus definitely shouldn't be +25% commerce, it should be something small, and very insignificant, like +1 culture.

I have to agree with you on that point. There must be enough incentive for a civ to convert after 2 or more of its cities have a religion. What I would suggest though is having the paganism civic have these 3 caracteristics : no upkeep, no state religion, +1 if no religion are present in the city.
Why?
1) The first new religious civic to be researched is usually organized religion which has a high upkeep. It makes a reason to stay pagan if your economy is not that great (think Rome).
2) To stop early conversion until you research organized religion which comes not too early. So ancient times civs can stay longer with no religion.
3) Happyness is something lacking in the early game. Also, having every city producing culture as soon as it is founded wouldn't work well with the border expensions. We have already "official" religions to represent that effect, religions chosen because it is believed they had a more lasting impact on our culture.

I think this represents a bit what everyone said, mainly a bonus for not converting early but a reason to convert in the future. The addition of pagan temple could also make a nice touch.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[fearuin]

Your proposal is good, captain beaver. But I think that this is not enough. I think Paganism should create culture. The reason is both historical and game-balancing.
1.- In terms of game balance, because in RFC, having early good culture values is important, because it will help to claim more land what is always scarce (or I feel like it, maybe I'm Aggressive/Expansionist). I won't stay pagan for a merely +1 . I will race up for having Priesthood early, grab a religion, and start spreading it, and building temples. This way I have both culture and happiness. And if I am Egypt, I will be even less worried about hapiness because of their unique power. If the point is to choose a little benefit for having paganism, a +1 culture it's infinitely a better reason to stay pagan than +1 . But I agree with you that happiness is scarce in early game, so that why, in terms of game-balancing, I choose to give both benefits, culture and happiness. After all, if you have a state religion and build temples, you'll get the same benefit, but it will grow with time. But if you stay pagan, it will not. That represents the fragmented and chaotic nature of early religions.

2.- In terms of history... Well, have you ever been at Rome? If the Agrippa's Pantheon, the Vestal Temple, and a large etc (most of Roman structures were decorated with some religious art) give no culture, I just cannot comprehend what gives it. Most of this temples were so elaborated as any other religion have, so I think it is historically accurate that Paganism gives culture to a civ. The same happens with mesoamerican, egyptian, or shintoist, to give some examples. I haven't seen them directly, but I have seen photos of them in books and the Internet. They deserve such benefit.

But I still support the idea of a National Wonder that represents the foundation of "pagan national state religion". Maybe instead with 4 obelisks, it should be built with 4 Pagan temples, but it will be risk to have the AI to convert to state religions quickly just because she doesn't have incentives enough to stay pagan. The "National Myths" wonder will be that incentive.

 

[kairob]

I think also that pagan civs should have the religious diplo penalty against all other civs, this aught to also give a very large incentive to convert, especially as rome usually founds christianity and is usually pretty hard

 

[Hitti-Litti]

But should other pagan civs get a diplo hit too?

Your idea is okay, as soon as it doesn't affect on Free Religion.

 

[kairob]

Like so two 'pagan' civs would get a penalty against each other, and good call on free religion

 

[Phallus]

But why? Having penalties between two pagan civs goes against the way the majority of polytheistic religions worked. Even when pagan peoples met Christianity, some of them would worship both their own gods and the Christian god (possibly assuming it was a win-win situation).

 

[kairob]

well they defonatly should not get bonuses with every other pagan civ, so it wouldnt modify diplo, can we agree on that at least?

 

[captain beaver]

Your proposal is good, captain beaver. But I think that this is not enough. I think Paganism should create culture. The reason is both historical and game-balancing.
1.- In terms of game balance, because in RFC, having early good culture values is important, because it will help to claim more land what is always scarce (or I feel like it, maybe I'm Aggressive/Expansionist). I won't stay pagan for a merely +1 . I will race up for having Priesthood early, grab a religion, and start spreading it, and building temples. This way I have both culture and happiness. And if I am Egypt, I will be even less worried about hapiness because of their unique power. If the point is to choose a little benefit for having paganism, a +1 culture it's infinitely a better reason to stay pagan than +1 . But I agree with you that happiness is scarce in early game, so that why, in terms of game-balancing, I choose to give both benefits, culture and happiness. After all, if you have a state religion and build temples, you'll get the same benefit, but it will grow with time. But if you stay pagan, it will not. That represents the fragmented and chaotic nature of early religions.

The goal of it is exactly that : less benefit for staying pagan versus convert to something else. Right now, to have culture, you have to either invest time building something (temple/library/monument/etc) or convert to something and risking diplo malus with other civs. For example, why would I build a monument that gives +1 culture if my city is already giving +1 culture? As you said, culture is valuable and every valuable thing as a price. Here, it is either time invested in a building or diplo hits with other civs. Beside, you can always build you pagan temple later on to produce culture. And if we gave culture to every city, I would definitly stay pagan, build a pagan temple and have no diplo hits with others.

2.- In terms of history... Well, have you ever been at Rome? If the Agrippa's Pantheon, the Vestal Temple, and a large etc (most of Roman structures were decorated with some religious art) give no culture, I just cannot comprehend what gives it. Most of this temples were so elaborated as any other religion have, so I think it is historically accurate that Paganism gives culture to a civ. The same happens with mesoamerican, egyptian, or shintoist, to give some examples. I haven't seen them directly, but I have seen photos of them in books and the Internet. They deserve such benefit.

Yes, I have actually. What I meant though is that while it is a nice thing to see, there won't be Jupiter's followers in the Pantheon as it is a dead religion. Hence, culturally speaking, it has little or no effect on present actions compared with say Christian or Islamic legacy. It is simply to illustrate that the "official" 7 world religions in CIV have a greater cultural impact than ancient polytheism.

But I still support the idea of a National Wonder that represents the foundation of "pagan national state religion". Maybe instead with 4 obelisks, it should be built with 4 Pagan temples, but it will be risk to have the AI to convert to state religions quickly just because she doesn't have incentives enough to stay pagan. The "National Myths" wonder will be that incentive.

A national wonder for paganism could be a good idea, but remember that building 4 temples in the ancient age is more difficult that it seems. Having 4 cities early on cripples one's research and not everyone of them has a good production. By the time you actually have 4 cities and the time to build those temples, chrisitanity/confucianism/hinduism/buddism is already there. At any rate, it seems to me like too little benefits for the time invested in this project.
By the way, I proposed to make paganism require that you have no state religion. Therefore, you cannot convert until you researched monotheism anyways. Even then, due to the high upkeep and small benefit from having only 1 city with the state religion, you might want to wait before converting.

well they defonatly should not get bonuses with every other pagan civ, so it wouldnt modify diplo, can we agree on that at least?

The diplo system is fine IMHO in terms of religions. No need to change that.

 

[Vishaing]

We could just apply the benefits directly to the Obelisk/Monument when under the civic 'Paganism'. Thus when the civic changes you still get the current culture bonus, but it also removes the need for a Pagan temple/wonder thing (which would require a new class of buildings, new graphics, new code, etc..)

 

[Phallus]

well they defonatly should not get bonuses with every other pagan civ, so it wouldnt modify diplo, can we agree on that at least?

It shouldn't modify diplomacy in any way except for a minor penalty from civs with a major religion.

 

[kairob]

ok, good I just had a terrable image of all the civs staying pagan to get diplo bonuses...

 

[fearuin]

Here I find some interesting ideas. I'll give them a briefly review:

But why? Having penalties between two pagan civs goes against the way the majority of polytheistic religions worked. Even when pagan peoples met Christianity, some of them would worship both their own gods and the Christian god (possibly assuming it was a win-win situation).

I agree totally with you. Think of this: what did the romans did when reached Egypt? Adapt and adopt the egyptian gods. They did the same in Persia, Galia, and further. Only the Jewish and the Christian Gods became a problem to romans, hence the jews and primitive christians believed they worshipped the "true" God, so no other cult was true. In CIV terms, this would mean that pagan cults are compatible between them, but major religions are not compatible either with paganism or other religions. So the diplo hit would work this way.

The goal of it is exactly that : less benefit for staying pagan versus convert to something else. Right now, to have culture, you have to either invest time building something (temple/library/monument/etc) or convert to something and risking diplo malus with other civs.

I thought the problem was that nobody stayed pagan, and civs adopted religions too early and precipitedly, with mediterranean civs adopting judaism because it is a "loose religion", that spreads well in that area because its holy city is coastal and its spreading rate too high. So the goal should be to incentive civs for staying pagan, but not for too much time.

We could just apply the benefits directly to the Obelisk/Monument when under the civic 'Paganism'. Thus when the civic changes you still get the current culture bonus, but it also removes the need for a Pagan temple/wonder thing (which would require a new class of buildings, new graphics, new code, etc..)

This is a very good idea. I fully agree with you.

A national wonder for paganism could be a good idea, but remember that building 4 temples in the ancient age is more difficult that it seems. Having 4 cities early on cripples one's research and not everyone of them has a good production. By the time you actually have 4 cities and the time to build those temples, chrisitanity/confucianism/hinduism/buddism is already there. At any rate, it seems to me like too little benefits for the time invested in this project.

Yes, I agree, so lets get back to my initial proposal:

I have a simple solution to the "national" polytheisms issue. Why not to introduce a national wonder buildable with mysticism that would be called "national myths" and would give "+1 happy face, + 2 culture, and +2 PX" (the benefits of a spreaded state religion) in every city with an obelisk? It should be needed 4 obelisks (because of game balance), it will become obsolete with Calendar (as obelisks do) and it will require to have "no state religion" and "paganism" as a civic? Maybe it will give some culture and GP punctuation because of making the city where is built some sort of holy city.

But I will make it better: it can get obsolete with Scientific Method (I find it maybe more accurate historically since a lot of this early cults were based on mythical-non scientifical views of nature), and it can give the benefit to every city, so the "pagan cult" will be automatically "spreaded" to any new city.

Only one more note:

Having 4 cities early on cripples one's research and not everyone of them has a good production.

Yes, it's true. What I want to reflect with the "National Myths" National Wonder it's a developed pagan cult, tied to the national culture, so it is not possible to other civs to comprehend it and consecuently to convert to it. So you should have a big empire, for that stage of history. Think on romans, or egyptians. Primitive chinese may fit, also

 

[Surtur]

I'm not very enthusiastic about a national wonder. AI has enough problems building the ancient wonders in time. Adding another early national wonder would only slow them down much more.

 

[NeoT]

Paganism should just give a bonus to cities whitout religion, that will be more than enough, there is no need for a building.