No more wars. Please!

[dogen]

No more wars. Please!

What can you achieve by winning the war? It will only cause more tragedies like this to happen. <br />Why don't we sit back and think about why they risked their lives to hit the WTC?

Those terrorists are not borned to be terrorists, everybody treasures their lives. Think about it, they have families, they have childrens too. If <br />they can live as happy as us, why would they choose to become terrorists??? why? It is because their homeland were shattered by war.

Why they chose the US as a target? Where did they get the guts from? It was because of hatred. Why they hate the US? They hate the Americans because the Americans made their homeland suffered and killed their people. US is a super power they have nothing to fight back against the US. That's the only reason that they are terrorists.

Every action has a cause. It is that simple.

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: dogen ]

[ September 14, 2001: Message edited by: dogen ]</p>

 

[gjts00]

I challenge you to furnish proof of your ridiculous claim that the US "destroyed their homeland & killed their people"!!!

 

[jedi rat]

DOGEN!!!<br />Thank a lot for that thread. I thought about that, but when I asked it in other thread I was &#8230;&#8230;. by Mr Moderator (the person knows who it is). <br />I agree with you in 100%. Most of us here just think about punishing those who did it. Of course they deserve punishment, but it will not stop others extremists!!!<br />Some of us tried to indicate that one of the reasons could be involvement of USA in Middle East. Its way to exploit those countries to get oil. I have mentioned that USA&#8217;s image (we are the greatest) drives Islamic extremists nuts. I am not against USA or hating it by what I have said. I try to discuss matters, but some of civ&#8217;s here do not know how a mature discussion works.

 

[jedi rat]

gts00 please listen if you have nothing to say!!!

 

[dogen]

Originally posted by gjts00:<br /><strong>I challenge you to furnish proof of your ridiculous claim that the US "destroyed their homeland & killed their people"!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, the US may not destroyed their homeland, but US certainly killed some of their people. <br />US has involved too much in the affairs of the middle-east.

I agree that the terrorists deserves punshied, but not their country. No countries like to harbor terrorists.

 

[G-Man]

What kind of an idiot are you? These people are fanatic Islamics that were brain washed from childhood by master-terrorists supported by muslim extrimist countries. They believe that the US is "The bid devil" that wants to kill all muslims, and therefore their attacks are "Jihad" - holy war. The Kuran promises that all who die during Jihads will become Shahids (saints) and will live in heaven with 70 virgins. These people are driven by twisted religious motives. If the US doesn't want any more attacks you have no choice but to eliminate the people that brain wash, as well as their supporters.<br />Even if Afghanistan will turn in Bin-Laden they should be attacked, as they already supported him, and his orgenization will still work on more terror attacks. Bin Laden and his people are not poor people, they're extrimist billioners that if they wouldn't turn to terror they would be between 100 reachest people in the world. His country is Saudi - that got support from the US more then once.<br />The US has no choice but to destry every country that supports or hosts terrorists, or you'll loose your international power, your fearsom power, and will be a great target to muslim terrorists. You can see today how almost every country in the world is willing to help the Us, even countries that aren't afraid of terror. That's because these countries are afraid of you. But if you won't react they'll start to support terrorists for they're own causes, usually to gain more power, on account of the US. I'd like to see you go to 10,000 families and tell them that you're sorry they're love ones died, but it's they're fault, as they were driving in cars driven by oil. Should I remind you that oil is what funded this attack? And when have the US lost soldiers in the middle east? Only when defending Saudies (ans as I said Bin Laden was Saudi) and Kuwaits, and preventing Iraq from gaining enough money to build a nuke. Do you think these are bad causes?<br />Bid laden works against the US because it's not a muslim country, and because it's a free country where not everybody has to obey the rules of alla and Muhamad. So, will you convert your religioun, fight, or wait to be hit by a plane? Your decision.

 

[allan]

When they used force, they forfeited the right to peaceful discussion.

I even agreed with a lot of what bin Laden believed--that the US should get out of the middle east--but the bastard had to commit an atrocity against my country so now just for that I hope he doesn't get ANYTHING he wants, even those things I want myself. Just like disciplining a child who throws tantrums to try and get his way--only bin Laden (or whoever did THIS, but bin Laden we know has done other things LIKE this) is no child, and his "tantrums" kill people, so we must DEFINITELY make it clear that these "tantrums" (acts of terror) will get him NOWHERE.... So then what use will terror tactics be, if they will do NOTHING for the terrorists, will not help them achieve their political goals? We can discuss later how we will handle the middle east, troops there, etc. BUT FOR NOW, we must not yield to ANY of their demands or desires, even if we want to.... The next sound they hear from us should be the sound of smart bombs whizzing in....

It's VERY MUCH a game of face--THAT is the most important thing to them, and therefore THAT is the only way we can break them....

Whether we want it or not, we ARE at war--and war takes discipline even for the strong side. Especially a war against this new type of enemy....

So hold on to your rational sentiments, but realize what has to be done NOW....

 

[G-Man]

They already got what they wanted. They wanted to see Americans killed and American symbols of power and strengh being destroyed. What the US has to do is to counter that, by destroying terror orgenizations.<br />We, in Israel, always said the targeted killing are our strongest weapon, as we kill terrorists before they have time to attack. Show me one American that wouldn't like to kill Bin-Laden before he planned this.

 

[drake]

No more wars. Please! ???????

Who wants war? No one does. But at this time, there probably is no choice but to go to war. If America or any other country is soft, THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN....AND AGAIN.....AND AGAIN.....

A gate is open right now......either we close it and seal it so this can't happen again, or we allow terrorists free reign over the world, not just in US.

Sometimes a war is necessary...and many people will probably die because of it, but this incident on tuesday was not a little car bomb or pipe bomb some un-organized idiot laid down, this was a major operation, worked out to every last detail....and there are probably many more plans just like it just waiting to be executed. They arrested men in two NY airports last night who were carrying fake pilot id's and knives in their bags.....it is very likely that they were going to attempt a 5th and 6th hijacking last night....

DOesnt thats scare any of you? So are we just going to take this and rollover and die? Hell no. If it means war to stop this, so be it.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Unlike a a tango, it only takes one willing party to make a war, and that has already been done in this instance. Motivations for terrorist groups vary greatly. For Bin Laden against the USA, his first and foremost motivation is that we, are the preeminat power and a western democracy are inherently an obstacle to the advancemt of authoritarian islamic fundamentalist power by force. Regardless of any activities we have egaged in our very nature and existance make us a target for him. All other western materialistic democracies are also targets for him, just lower priority. He cannot achive his goals without ruining aal Europe, North Amercia, and any other "western" type power. he cannot achieve his goal by mny means other than violence, followed by conquest. There is not pssobility of a dipomatic or peaceful arrangement with him or similar group (which does not include all arab and Moslem violent groups) other than surrender. The war will continue even if only they are fighting it.

 

[ERIKtheRED]

There must not be a war!

Of course none of us think of this act as anything but supreme evil.

The United States cannot win this war.

Suppose we kill Osama bin Laden... His followers will take his place.<br />Suppose we kill all his followers... Such a huge destruction of life will do wonders for recuiting. By killing civilians and suspected terrorists en masse, the US will only prove to undecided people that we are the great satan.

Any war will end in either a US victory or a nuclear war-- the US would not stop fighting until this was the case. And in either case, a generation of hatred will be fostered in each and every country we attack. The people that attacked on september 11 must be the last generation to hate america!

Many calls have been made for revenge. The american people want blood for their blood end lives for the lives of the dead americans. This is irrational. By exacting our super-power revenge, we only PROVOKE more violence. By making no attack, we risk a few attacks slipping through our intellligence service, but we take away Osama bin Laden's momentum.

 

[Mothman]

Erik, You are unamerican. How can you seriously say that we should do nothing? I say we fight to the last men, Breed more, then fight to the last of those. hehe

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by dogen:No more wars. Please!

That is no longer an option.
War was declared on September 11, 2001, at 8:45 AM in New York City, United States of America.

What can you achieve by winning the war?

An end to the death of innocents, a world where people can live in peace and freedom, not in fortified jails of their own making.

It will only cause more tragedies like this to happen.

Like so many, you don't understand.
You can't talk to these people, you can't negotiate with these people, they will not stop untill you are dead or they are.

Why don't we sit back and think about why they risked their lives to hit the WTC?

Because they were fanatics trained in hate, who were promised a celestial paradise filled with willing virgins by their religious leaders if they slaughtered non-muslim innocents.
I'm not kidding, that is right on the mark.

Those terrorists are not borned to be terrorists, everybody treasures their lives.

You are EXTREMLY ignornet of Hard line Fundementalist Islamic culture and motivations.
They don't value life at all, because they believe if they do certain things, like slaughter infidels, they get to spend eternaly in paradise.

Think about it, they have families, they have childrens too. If they can live as happy as us, why would they choose to become terrorists???

See above post.
You cannot apply your value system on them, they are different then the west.

why? It is because their homeland were shattered by war.

Wars they start, and try to impose THEIR will on others, and will kill all opposition.

Why they chose the US as a target?

They view the US as the great satan, the obstical that prevents fundmentalist Islam from taking over THE EARTH, not just the mid east.

Where did they get the guts from?

See above part, on religion.

It was because of hatred. Why they hate the US?

See part about great satan.

They hate the Americans because the Americans made their homeland suffered and killed their people.

Total nonsense.
The US has never done that, and in fact, has good relations with many Islamic countries.
We are talking about fundmentalist fanatics here, not all of Islam.
You just invented an answer, because you can't understand the truth.
Bin Laden is a Saudi, a country that has been a US ally for MANY years. In other words, you don't know what your talking about.In fact, most of you, especially Jedi-Rat, have been speaking from ignorence all week .
I was to hurt and upset this week to correct you all properly, UNTILL NOW.

US is a super power they have nothing to fight back against the US. That's the only reason that they are terrorists.

Again, nonsense.
The attacks were on the Amercan way of life, intended to cause fear and suffering, not fight a war.
Most of their fellow muslims consider them outlaws.
They are hunted in Eygpt and Saudi Arabia, to name just two.
It's about time a lot of you learned the truth, instead of spewing this garbage.

Every action has a cause. It is that simple.

Yes.
We exist, and show a better world then their mid-evil Islamic fundmentalism, so we must be destroyed.

All of you, especially jedi rat, read this and understand.
This is a war on terror, and the states that support it, NOT islam.

Edit: To repair quotes

 

[Rangers, Lead the Way]

Originally posted by dogen:<br />No more wars. Please!

What can you achieve by winning the war? It will only cause more tragedies like this to happen. <br />Why don't we sit back and think about why they risked their lives to hit the WTC?

Those terrorists are not borned to be terrorists, everybody treasures their lives. Think about it, they have families, they have childrens too. If <br />they can live as happy as us, why would they choose to become terrorists??? why? It is because their homeland were shattered by war.

Why they chose the US as a target? Where did they get the guts from? It was because of hatred. Why they hate the US? They hate the Americans because the Americans made their homeland suffered and killed their people. US is a super power they have nothing to fight back against the US. That's the only reason that they are terrorists.

Every action has a cause. It is that simple.

<hr></blockquote>

So much for that theory. ID of the terrorists so far shows a mix of nationalities, primarily UAE and Saudi, neither of which are "oppressed" let alone ever conquered by the US or "shattered by war"

Get a clue - you will not understand them and their motivations with your westernized, liberal mindset. They hate you and what you represent, as much as they hate me and what I represent, which is the same as far as they are concerned.

 

[Rangers, Lead the Way]

Originally posted by dogen:<br />I agree that the terrorists deserves punshied, but not their country. No countries like to harbor terrorists.<hr></blockquote>

God, you are naive. Spend some time in the mideast. Some of us have seen it firsthand.

 

[G-Man]

To all of you opposed to war - Very well, you don't like war. I don't like war either. My country is hurt by a war, and fought more wars then any other country since WWII.<br />But I also understand war is a part of life. Imagine what would happen if people in Israel wouldn't fight in 1948, 1956, 1967 or 1973. If we would just seat at home and do nothing. I can tell you what would happen. There was no Israel today.<br />You sound a lot like right wing politicians here in Israel. You say what's wrong with the other side's ideas, but you don't have a better idea yourself. Give me one, just one way that you can solve this without a war.<br />Bid Laden will fight the US untill one side is dead. The US can't and won't be the side that dies first.

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: G-Man ]</p>

 

[Juize]

--- Himself edit --- ---moderator edit---
[EDIT: Simply because of quote -problem.]
[EDIT 2: My opinions of G-man were standing above his former
comments. He's edited them now...]

 

[dreadhead7]

Juize, I know that you are opposed to war. I am, too, for that matter, but I think it's all about supporting your country. I may not like some of the things that my country does, but, oh well, we are in a war, whether I like it or not, and the least that I can do is to support my country.

I expect you'll be flaming me too. But keep in mind--you are very young, and you'll learn. I did, and still am. I think that the best thing to do, Juize, is to simply agree to disagree. I'll be much more conducive to the harmony of this board.

 

[Juize]

You are with war, yes, maybe, but against who?..
Quite simple question, but it requires an complex answer...
(Just PM, if you have time to answer, It seems like everybody else already knows...)

 

[BlueMonday]

Going to war or not is not a choice to make. What is done can have only one consequence. The terrorists knew it, I know it, and I think in some place little place you know it too. As for the question raised by Juize as to who...the terrorists -it's a pretty simple answer in the end. We hunt down the leaders, their assets, and their followers and we take them out. The NSA and CIA already have the locations of almost all of Bin*******'s training camps and bases of operations and the military is just waiting for one word: GO!

Do we want war? No, but we don't have a choice. Imagine if we had turned the other cheek when Japan bombed Pearl.