Nobles' Club 254: Mehmed II of the Ottomans

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Mehmed II of the Ottomans, whom we last played in NC 203; we last played the Ottomans under Suleiman in NC 216. The Ottomans start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: Mehmed II is Expansive and Organized. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers. Note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to . Organized cuts Civic Upkeep in half, and gives a +100% bonus to Lighthouses, Courthouses and Factories.
  
• The UB: The Hamman, an Aqueduct with +2. Too expensive to make good use of early game, when (Expansive) is still abundant and (at best) two extra citizens cannot cover for the cost of building a Hamman, but in the late game this is an excellent building to simultaneously fight back against factory/coal plant unhealthiness and Emancipation unhappiness.
  
• The UU: The Janissary, a Musketman with +25% vs. Archery, Melee and Mounted units. Base muskets are generally ignored in favor of units that have either a higher base , or in the case of siege-based warfare, a lower cost to get more bodies on the field. Janissaries are given the same treatment, though they're a pretty solid all-in-one resourceless stack defender package. For reference a Janissary on defence is not as good against Mounted as a Pike (though Janissaries are resourceless and not threatened by Maces/Crossbows, Pikes require Iron and can only defend against Mounted), much better against Melee than a Mace (Melee units tend to get bonuses vs. Melee units, but Janissaries are Gunpowder units, so their bonus applies while the Mace's bonus does not) and mercilessly play a funeral dirge for the concept of offensive Archery units.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate Climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Your starting position was swapped with an AI, an island was sunk to ensure proper AI contact conditions, and a number of resource swaps were done to both ensure nearby strategic resources for the AIs and to send the sunken island's resources to a nice, new home.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 254 Mehmed II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Seems like a straightforward case of "send Warrior 1E, determine if there's anything justifying moving to the east, and if not settle the PH Stone 1W". Curious to know what the experts think, though .

For the record: The Pig tile, as well as the tiles 1E and 1W of the pig, report "Fresh Water" if you hover over them, despite them not being connected to the river. Not sure if that changes anyone's settling plans, but either way, just wanted to note that .

 

[dankok8]

1W on the Stone seems like the place to go. Love to see Fur and Gold nearby for two more early happiness.

 

[Pangaea]

For the record: The Pig tile, as well as the tiles 1E and 1W of the pig, report "Fresh Water" if you hover over them, despite them not being connected to the river.

Means there is a lake or oasis 1S of pig.

 

[Wrathful]

My thoughts on the start.

Spoiler :

Hammurabi is in the game (but not Mansa Musa). You can tell from the soldier count.

1E is the only good move for the warrior. He might find something good (he found sheep and that's it.)

So, where to settle? Has to be on the stone, right? That was my initial thought, but there are some drawbacks to settling there. First of all, we lose the oasis. Not a big deal because we already have flood plains and an oasis is only 1 commerce more, but it's still something to consider. You also lose a turn by moving the settler, and then your worker will take an extra turn to reach the pig.

I decided to play out each settling choice - on the stone and in place. Here is the capital city screen when settling on the stone:

9 turn worker here, which is pretty great. But what exactly is he going to do? Not pasture the pigs, because AH won't be done for a whopping 15 turns if we don't work any commerce. Build a mine? Build roads? These don't seem like the greatest options in my opinion.

Now let's consider the alternative: settling in place.

Worker out in ten turns this time, which is 1 turn slower than before. However, since we didn't move the settler, we gain a turn over SOS (settle on stone). And AH is two turns quicker here because we are working an extra commerce. Our worker will still be a bit too early to immediately improve the pig, but he can at least road them while we wait. Also note that we might be able to shave another turn off of AH by working the oasis when our culture claims it.

My conclusion: if getting the pigs online as fast as possible is the goal, settling in place is best. The bottleneck for improving them is commerce, not hammers. And SIP provides much more commerce than SOS.

Other thoughts on the start:

• Stone is a nice tile to work. One way or another we will likely improve it, either with a mine or a quarry. Settling on it deprives us of a good tile.
• SOS offers a three hammer capital, which is handy for churning out warriors early on. But SIP still gives a two-hammer capital and the pigs offer another hammer as well, so it's not a huge benefit.
  
• Second city will almost certainly go between the gold and sheep, so SIP has the benefit of lowering distance maintenance.
• SOS increases the number of forests in the capital BFC by 1. Not an insignificant boost because this area doesn't have that much forest and we will probably be chopping out wonder(s).
  
• SIP has an extra flood plain in the BFC.

My playthrough to turn 50:

Spoiler :

Trying out Deity again. I have yet to win a Deity game despite some games that showed promise like the Willem Noble's club game.

Settled in place! Started on a worker and teched AH. Explored a bit around the capital and was a little unsettled. It looks like isolation.

I teched Mining after AH, to mine the stone and later on the gold. I had planned to build the Great Wall at first, but considering the land available I don't think it's worth it. There doesn't seem to be much land for barbarians come from, and without any AI's out there the Great Spy won't be very useful. Mids, however, would be excellent.

My starting warrior took up a fogbusting position in the south. An archer spawning there would be very bad as there isn't any good defensive terrain and my pigs would be threatened. A barbarian warrior spawned in the west, which is quite good as he will prevent an archer from spawning over there. Now I really only have to worry about the east.

After Mining I proceeded to Bronze Working. I figured that the gold would take care of commerce for the time being, so production is most important. I think the Mids are quite important here.

Two warriors took on a barbarian archer in the east. I hoped to be able to clean up the archer even if one of my defenders died.

Success! One warrior died, but the archer was quite wounded and died easily afterward. The island appears to be completely fogbusted now. So unless an AI can be reached via a scout boat, this appears to be a fairly laid back isolated start (if Deity isolation can ever be considered "laid back".)

But it turns out I was wrong about the continent ending; there is more land in the east. I need to improve my fog-gazing skills. My warrior was forced to retreat all the way back home, but I was able to get reinforcements and settle my second city without any delays.

BW came in on T34. I revolted to slavery. There is copper available, but I don't think it will be necessary. I can spam tons of warriors from my capital and I still think there isn't much land out there.

I plan to tech Fishing > Pottery > Masonry. Fishing is debatable, but I will certainly need it eventually, and it speeds up Pottery.

After teching Fishing I changed my approach a little and went for Masonry. I won't be cottaging early on here, instead chopping and building a quarry. Cheap granaries would be very good, but I want to get started on the Mids here.

Here comes the barb warrior from the west. The worst thing he could do is move onto my stone mine, so I put my warrior there and got ready to produce another in my capital if needed. Edirne also sent in another warrior just in case. I had hoped to invest my settler whip overflow into a cheap worker, but I can't have everything.

I stopped at T50. Hopefully I can get the Mids done within the next 15-20 turns. There is a lot of pretty good land available, though some of it I will probably avoid settling until Optics.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Depending on what the warrior finds to the east, I would also consider to settle on the PH between gold and pigs.
Normally, I am not attracted by gold so strongly, it can wait for the 2nd city, but here it looks like the better choice while the 2nd city can go directly on the stone.

Stone in the early game = failgold, gold in the early game = much stronger research, I guess I'd prefer the second choice.

 

[Pangaea]

@Wrathful

Spoiler :

Settled in place! Started on a worker and teched AH. Explored a bit around the capital and was a little unsettled. It looks like isolation.

Thanks for the warning (glad I read the spoiler). I've become less interested in Nobles Club because so many maps are isolated these days. There are dedicated threads for those. Use them. Used to love playing these games and interact with the forum with updates and whatnot, but it's not all bad. Easier to focus on HoF or BOTM games instead, which are fun too.

Interesting that you tested both approaches. I kinda liked SIP because the worker wouldn't waste a turn moving to pigs. The extra hammer on stone is nice for the very long term too ofc, but SIP does look nice with more rivers and an extra FP. Isolation kinda ruins the whole gig, but other than that it looked like an interesting start.

 

[Tobiyogi]

T 14

Spoiler Capitol :

I am loving my capitol with double sheep. Lots of potential for growth or settler/worker production. And even fresh water due to the Oasis.

 

[sampsa]

T0

Spoiler :

I think after the warrior move, choices are 1W and 2E1S. SIP is decent, but feels worse. While I don't have a gold fever and like to have as many extra on city center tile as possible, extra -resource plus early gold (the tile is significantly stronger pre-granary) is worth quite a lot. 1W also loses the oasis (there has to be one due to fresh water) and a floodplain. I think I'd slightly favor 2E1S intending to put 2nd city on stone.

 

[AcaMetis]

Questions for people playing the map (some early map spoilers included):

Spoiler :

Thanks for the warning (glad I read the spoiler). I've become less interested in Nobles Club because so many maps are isolated these days. There are dedicated threads for those. Use them. Used to love playing these games and interact with the forum with updates and whatnot, but it's not all bad. Easier to focus on HoF or BOTM games instead, which are fun too.

Interesting that you tested both approaches. I kinda liked SIP because the worker wouldn't waste a turn moving to pigs. The extra hammer on stone is nice for the very long term too ofc, but SIP does look nice with more rivers and an extra FP. Isolation kinda ruins the whole gig, but other than that it looked like an interesting start.

Are iso maps really that uninteresting? This map is iso in part because I didn't want a repeat of the last Suleiman map (which was also Fractal, medium sealevel, temperate climate, etc., but wasn't iso), in part because I wanted to know if Jans can work as a cheaper/still effective substitute for Grens if the player chooses to go for an offensive victory condition, and so I figured that an iso map would be better than a regular one in this case. Was that incorrect?

Either way, what do people think about me adding an "isolated?" spoiler in the map details section, so that just whether the map is an iso map is openly available, but hidden behind two spoiler tags for those that don't want to know beforehand? Something like

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate Climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler isolated? :

Isolated (or semi-iso, etc.)

Spoiler edits :

list of edits

 

[sampsa]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

I only want to know the map script, I've never seen any reason to read edits even. Lately there has been many isolated maps and many maps with stone. I understand that it's normal variance, but I think many players are getting bored if the games are too similar.

 

[Pangaea]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

A spoiler like that would be fine I think. Then people who are not interested in isolation maps can skip them. Removes some of the early excitement from exploration, but I find isolation maps terribly boring because all pretty much play the same, so it would save some time and frustration. Perhaps others are fine with them and I just sound like a broken record, but I've played my share of isolation maps and they're not all that much fun. No AI contact for at least 4000 years, no trades, no wars, and teching usually is the same path each time. Work on some GSs, bulb towards Astro, upgrade/whip caravels and make contact. Then eventually whip out an army and declare on probably the closest AI, most likely with either cannons or cuirs. I like to have more options. The game is more open then and I find that fun. Sure, it's easier to get into a dominant position early on if you are able to rush a neighbour or two, but the game is not won, and you don't have to rush early ofc. Can rex or work on diplo instead. Anyway, this is just my view. As said above, I've invested time into HoF maps instead, which is fun as well. Very different of course, but it's nice to (very) slowly work on that EQM thing they've got going and get a few #1s along the way.

 

[Nick723]

Questions for people playing the map (some early map spoilers included):

Spoiler :

Are iso maps really that uninteresting? This map is iso in part because I didn't want a repeat of the last Suleiman map (which was also Fractal, medium sealevel, temperate climate, etc., but wasn't iso), in part because I wanted to know if Jans can work as a cheaper/still effective substitute for Grens if the player chooses to go for an offensive victory condition, and so I figured that an iso map would be better than a regular one in this case. Was that incorrect?

Either way, what do people think about me adding an "isolated?" spoiler in the map details section, so that just whether the map is an iso map is openly available, but hidden behind two spoiler tags for those that don't want to know beforehand? Something like

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate Climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler isolated? :

Isolated (or semi-iso, etc.)

Spoiler edits :

list of edits

I’m not a regular player of Nobles Clubs - so take what I say with a pinch of salt!

That said, I enjoy iso maps and welcome the variety (indeed that’s the best thing about the fractal script). However, I think your suggestion for a second spoiler is a good one for those who are less iso-inclined!

I’ll hopefully get the chance to play this one - even though I couldn’t resist peeking at some of the spoilers!

 

[chinemol]

monarch nh, ne - 1909 diplo victory

Spoiler :

hard map! got the idea it was isolation early on luckyly., not so early as to not use the stone for great wall.Got almost all stone wonders + G Lighthouse (the best wonder here) + statue of liberty + taj (last 2 with a couple of engineers). Did savescum when I missed on judaism by three turns, then used the great spy for a golden age and got it. optics after some basics, then it got really hard, since they started teching hard: Invaded Cyrus with a huge mass of 44 cannons + some rifles and couple of infantry. Luckily the world was united in the hatred of huayna, but only wang kong was a vassal to charlomagne. so--->cyrus (capped)----->huayna (capped)----->Hammurabi (killed; 7 cities one of them on the other continent)---->charlomagne+wang (killed wang with help of huayna, took three cities from charlomagne when diplo victory kicked in) horrible play, horrible date, but got another victory at monarch!

 

[scheines]

Spoiler :

What are people having luck with on immortal+? On my first go, built the mids, bulbed Astro ~200 AD (went for caste, philo since I founded confucianism, then bulbed machinery, and astro 2x). I then still had time to lib steel; the continents were busy fighting.

But my attempts to go jannisaries + cannons were pretty stonewalled: Cyrus and Charlemagne capitulated / vassaled Huayna and Wang Kon, respectively. Add in Gilgamesh as a unit spammer, and nobody is really palatable to take on. Am I just too slow to the punch (jannisaries and cannons vs muskets / cuirassiers)?

Another issue is that all of Cyrus, Gilgamesh and Charly were plotting again by the time I was ready to go, so I couldn’t put the AIs against each other. So, I am stuck on this one. Perhaps just an unlucky draw with the vassals + plotting?

My only other thought was maybe musketmen just don’t have enough power since cuirassiers are right around the corner. Going to try again but aim for rifling and steel instead.

I can post a save if desired.

 

[civac]

Jannissary/Cannons seems just fine vs Cuirassiers if you have enough numbers. If the ai wasn't imbecillic they would flank your cannons but it is and won't do that purposefully enough. Don't Janissaries get +25% vs mounted too? You would have superior odds on a hill.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Immortal, nhne, no brokering
I liked that map, but am a bit lost around 1600. Early game was perfect

Spoiler :

very good land to settle, i had 7 cities pre-astro and my economy was great even without the Mids. Took the failgold, because 2 happys and the Hamam. Astro at 350 ad, CS at 560 ad, education at 800, libbed steel later, but then it took me too long to get an army up. Vassaled only Hyana and have no energy left to keep on conquering the world.

 

[Nick723]

Immortal NHNE - 1828 Cultural Victory

Spoiler :

Settled the capital 2E1S. Second city on the stone, to get the pyramids, and then later on a picked up a very late GLH!

Spoiler Woop! :

After that I built Hanging Gardens as well (oops!) and founded Conf with Code of Laws. Decided to have some fun with the religious wonders, so next I founded something else...

Spoiler :

Obviously the plan was to get the AP, the UoS and the Spiral Minaret for the full package (and 3 religions for the cultural victory).

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

In between I picked up optics at 275AD and Libbed Astro at 940AD. For whatever reason the rest were absolute cavemen, I'm not even sure half of them had civil service at this point.

Could have won it anyway from here but given I'd messed around with the religious shenanigans I thought I may as well do culture. I haven't done a cultural victory in ages (in fact this was my first one on immortal) and tbh I forgot how much of a slog they were. Charlie and Huyana kept wanting to beta me up but I managed to fend them off with rifles, and eventually finally my 3 cities ticked over to legendary.

The most pleasing thing was when the UN voted for the extra trade route, giving me coastal cities the max possible (?) 6 trade routes!

 

[Nick723]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

A spoiler like that would be fine I think. Then people who are not interested in isolation maps can skip them. Removes some of the early excitement from exploration, but I find isolation maps terribly boring because all pretty much play the same, so it would save some time and frustration. Perhaps others are fine with them and I just sound like a broken record, but I've played my share of isolation maps and they're not all that much fun. No AI contact for at least 4000 years, no trades, no wars, and teching usually is the same path each time. Work on some GSs, bulb towards Astro, upgrade/whip caravels and make contact. Then eventually whip out an army and declare on probably the closest AI, most likely with either cannons or cuirs. I like to have more options. The game is more open then and I find that fun. Sure, it's easier to get into a dominant position early on if you are able to rush a neighbour or two, but the game is not won, and you don't have to rush early ofc. Can rex or work on diplo instead. Anyway, this is just my view. As said above, I've invested time into HoF maps instead, which is fun as well. Very different of course, but it's nice to (very) slowly work on that EQM thing they've got going and get a few #1s along the way.

Spoiler Thoughts :

Obviously I'm not going to tell you what you like and don't like...however I think there's a lot more flexibility than you give them credit for, at least on immortal? Granted this is a lush start and island, but in my game I messed around a lot with wonders, teched loads of stuff pre astro and still had the option afterwards to go either for conquest, culture, or even just win space from the island.

Anyway if you want a good iso map to mess around with - this is probably a good one!

 

[Nick723]

Immortal, nhne, no brokering
I liked that map, but am a bit lost around 1600. Early game was perfect

Spoiler :

very good land to settle, i had 7 cities pre-astro and my economy was great even without the Mids. Took the failgold, because 2 happys and the Hamam. Astro at 350 ad, CS at 560 ad, education at 800, libbed steel later, but then it took me too long to get an army up. Vassaled only Hyana and have no energy left to keep on conquering the world.

Spoiler Some thoughts :

Interesting that your astro date is miles before mine, but our lib dates were about the same. I'm not sure on this map with such great land and stone, is one to beeline a super early astro?

Another option for another time: when you have such a good island as this I think it's very doable to go for space without ever declaring war (at least on immortal)