Nobles' Club 309 Hannibal of Carthage

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Hannibal of Carthage, whom we last played in NC 212. The Carthaginians start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Hannibal is Charismatic and Financial. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1 , and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Financial adds +1 to any tile that already produces at least 2.
• The UB: The Cothon, a Harbor with +1, although it costs 25% more hammers to build (100 compared to 80 on Normal speed). An expensive, but powerful building if you've got access to foreign oversea trade routes. If you've got access to at least 2 seafood resources it'll also provide as much as an Aqueduct at the same hammer cost.
• The UU: The Numidian Cavalry, a Horse Archer with +50% versus Melee units and a free Flanking 1 promotion (+10% withdraw chance), although with only 5 compared to a normal Horse Archer's 6, making them relatively less effective against non-melee units. Alternatively, build them to upgrade into Flanking I Cuirassiers or Cavalry (or Gunships I guess), as promotions will stick with a unit through upgrades.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, temperate climate, medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Strategic resource swaps, and the player's starting position was switched with an AI.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not iso.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 309 Hannibal Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Now there's a start with so many options (though more than likely still only one "clearly" correct one ) that I'm having a hard time figuring out where to begin. I guess first move the Warrior to get more information, and move the warrior 1NE onto the gold to scout what looks like coast for seafood. If there isn't any than...I can't really form much of an argument for keeping Ivory over Gold in the capital, so I'm guessing 1N...or actually maybe 1NE to settle coastal? The cow can easily go to a second city, and with no incentive to go early hunting going early animal husbandry is less enticing. Than again a goldmine can definitely make up the difference, but than again than again I see bronze working being a necessary tech to go for early as there's not that much for a worker to do otherwise.

So, eh, yeah . But of a mess this one, albeit a glorious, fabulously wealthy mess . All the same, what do the experts think?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm not an expert but I'm thinking 1N for wet corn, cow and gold in the capital!

Warrior onto gold first move IMO.

 

[sampsa]

A quite clear 1E for me (well, without the scout move that is).

 

[georgjorge]

A quite clear 1E for me (well, without the scout move that is).

1E doesn't get the gold. Do you value the Plains Hill more than the gold tile? I don't see any other benefits with 1E.

 

[georgjorge]

Deity, up to 925BC:

Spoiler :

I soon saw the land was good - lots of food plus Marble - and the other AIs far away (or hampered by Jungle or water). So no early rush, no wonders, just getting as much of the land as possible, and having the goldmine pay for it.

Got two cities to the South, where Mehmet and Ramses come from. Also got a Barb city to the Southwest with Pigs and Corn. Founded one city in the North by Stone and Fish. Wang managed to land a boat and make a city by the eastern Fish, but I can still make a city to fight for the Pig up there. So six cities total.

Accordingly, tech was all production - Agriculture, Bronze Working (for chops), Wheel, Animal Husbandry. Then up to Aesthetics, with the goal of failgold for Parthenon and building the Great Library (probably in the capital, though there are not that many trees left there).

I also got a Woody II Warrior up to 7/8 XP, looking for Barbs to gain the 8th XP and unlock Heroic Epic.

Haven't switched into Slavery at all, with my first cities not having that much food. Maybe won't switch at all, go straight for Caste.

Willem just got Alphabet, so I could trade Aesthetics for Poly + Masonry + another small tech, or put a couple of turns into Alphabet to get it myself.

 

[sampsa]

1E doesn't get the gold. Do you value the Plains Hill more than the gold tile? I don't see any other benefits with 1E.

I think capital gold is better than an extra in general, but 1N loses forest, loses time without speeding up the worker, claims less green FIN river tiles and claims weaker tiles overall. What I didn't realize though is that the starting techs are not so great for 1E. Need to go agri-BW I guess and farm the cow. So yeah, I don't think 1E is clear.

 

[NapoleonThePig]

Got back into civ two months ago because of the music, or at least that's what I tell myself. Trying to kick my habit of worldbuildering to fix micro mistakes, and reloading when something goes awry.

I think Hannibal is a strong leader, but I can't beat deity reliably and could definitely use some pointers.

Deity NH/NE T1-T44

Spoiler :

Moved warrior onto gold, settled 1NE. I probably undervalue the plains-hill bonus and overvalue coastal.
Explored north with the warrior, two good sites (later moved the incense city 1E), left him there to spawnbust.
https://imgur.com/a/c57uSEL
Tech path Ag -> BW -> Hunting -> AH. Decided to grab hunting because a) all the deity AIs have it, so I get the bonus, b) ivory, and 3) need archery for the UU.
Build order worker -> warrior -> settler (size 3, 2 chops) -> worker -> warrior. Would've liked a 3rd warrior for scouting before the settler, but I think I delay the 2nd city too often.
https://imgur.com/a/ZUvlo0s
Don't really have enough scouting to be certain on 2nd city placement, but wet corn + ivory + marble is never bad. Worried about the archer because I only have one dude in the south.
I don't think an early rush is worth it, even with BFC horsies, lots of forests to chop, and (relatively) easy copper. Ramesses is close, builds wonders instead of units, and is likely to shrine his religion soon because of his UB. However, I feel incentivized to expand to 4-5 cities because there are good spots and gold to help fund things.
https://imgur.com/a/xG9V09D
So I queue a workboat because I'll need it eventually and it can explore for now, find out how much land Korea has and how likely he is to send a galley and settler over to MY land.

T45-T61

Spoiler :

Convenient copper and two nice barb cities make me rethink whether or not I should make a half-dozen axes and go break some things, but Ramesses has war chariots up.
https://imgur.com/a/60A4vvF
Utica does one turn on a granary and then 2-pop whips a worker; Carthage builds another settler. Tech path has been wheel -> pottery -> myst -> writing at 0% slider.
Settle city #3 between the lake and the copper, works pastured cow and building granary. Move my westernmost warrior onto a jungle hill to face an archer, but the archer has backup in the fog which gets revenge over the end turn.
One cottage down, riverside grass hill mined, ivory is camped but not roaded because I don't need the yet. Utica finishes granary, Carthage is halfway done.
Eastern barb city is already culture-pressured by Egypt and is probably a lost cause. At least I won't have to deal with all that jungle.
https://imgur.com/a/DZ2qRoF
Western barb city is up for grabs, but I'm not sure the best/most reliable way to take it. 6 chariots? 5 axes? Do I squeeze in a settler to get the fish and stone to the N and (hopefully) block Wang Kon? I don't feel behind on worker-turns, but there is a lot of forest to chop. I definitely over-value saving forests, both for the +50% from Math and later and lumbermills. Should I build another worker in Utica?

I can get six good peaceful cities (well, 5 + Mycenian) but I don't know if that's enough to kill someone with cuirs/rifles/cannons on Deity. Pyramids are definitely an option with stone from a 4th city. However, I think Egypt is too tempting of a target to wait, he already has the Jewish shrine done. ElePult should work, particularly given Ramey boasts of war chariots but not metal units. To that end, writing -> math -> maso -> construction makes sense, although I will probably need to self-tech HBR as well.
Can I afford to settle the fish/stone/incense to the north, and if I do can I afford to chop out the 'mids? Do I try to take the western barb city before getting wellys online? Would it be worth teching Aesth and trading for Alpha/Math, or would that delay Math too long?

Thoughts appreciated!

Also could anyone point me toward a guide on including screenshots? I had them uploaded directly to the forum, but then they display as 'attachments' and spoil the map, etc. so I just have imgur links.

 

[georgjorge]

@NapoleonThePig: Some pointers which may be helpful...

Spoiler :

I think no early rush is a good idea here, as you said - too much good land waiting to be filled peacefully.

Tech path has been wheel -> pottery -> myst -> writing at 0% slider

Why Mysticism? Just for border pops (did Ramesses not send you Missionaries soon), I'm not sure it's necessary. Depends on city placement of course.

As for the barb city: With promoted Axes, I'd wager about 1.5 Axes per Archer in there just to be sure - it's flatland after all. Watch if the AI sends stacks there, and whether they are likely to succeed or to reduce their Archers.

The AI won't send Settlers through your territory, but they will send boats with Settlers through your territory. So no blocking Wang Kon off this way.

It seems far too late to start on Pyramids now, they'll be gone in a short time. And they don't do much for cottages anyway, and your happiness cap is very high with Ivory + Gold + Charismatic already.

Elepult could work, you have the commerce and production for it. If you make some Axes quickly to take the barb city, you'll get gold to finance getting to Construction, and some leftover units. Teching Aesthetics for Maths COULD work, or you could sit around waiting for someone to tech Maths or Alphabet for too long. If you want Elepult, aim everything you have towards that goal, or you won't succeed.

Cuirassiers would also work, can be done with five or sometimes even four cities if they are good. Though you would have to keep both your neighbours, who are in different religions, content in the meantime. Doable, but a point in favor of taking one of them out sooner.

 

[NapoleonThePig]

@georgjorge

Spoiler :

Teched myst because I thought I would need a border pop in Utica to get the copper; haven't seen any missionaries. Plus monuments are worth 1 so I'll want the tech sooner rather than later.

I know AI will send a galley with a settler, but hopefully I'll remember to close borders if I see one.

Would it be worth it to prioritize maso to get failgold from the 'mids? I feel that the start has better than which makes the conversion more valuable, but it doesn't help to arrive at construction + HBR a few turns earlier and still need granary/monument/barrackses. And, if nobody else builds them, police state pays off after the 10th elephant. Wishful thinking perhaps.

Few questions on your game as well:

Spoiler :

Are you intending to attack someone (presumably Ramey) pre-Renaissance? I suppose the barracks probably mean yes.

Any particular reason to settle the corn/copper city on the hill vs. 1E? By the time it's settled I think we know we have horses which makes getting some anti-barb units less urgent.

I like the idea of skipping slavery--I tend to automatically revolt while the first settler is en route but it doesn't seem necessary here.

 

[georgjorge]

@NapoleonThePig:

Comment on your game...

Spoiler :

I would still go Maths first, because a) better chops b) if someone techs Alphabet, you could trade Masonry (and other stuff) for it. Failgold from Pyramids - nice to squeeze in somewhere, but I think they'll be gone soon.

As to my game...

Spoiler :

No, I'm going for Cuirassiers - the Barracks was a short insertion in the queue while growing and having nothing better to build. As I said, Elepult could be viable, but I went towards using the Marble and the multiple Scientists it would get me towards Liberalism rather than immediate warring.

The city can be settled either way - I don't necessarily want to work grassland Elephants, and my culture will get the ressource anyway, so I settled in order to take the Copper from Mehmet's culture. It's a duplicate (got the other Copper city up before that), but Copper can be traded for a good price after Currency. Still, no big deal either way, I think.

 

[drewisfat]

@sampsa I agree that going for the gold is not a no-brainer move when you're FIN. But when committing blasphemy don't hold back. Settle on cow is the fastest
AG>BW, work corn, then lake, then river ph mine, then chopchop.

 

[sampsa]

But when committing blasphemy don't hold back.

Well, you certainly didn't!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler Diety T115 1AD :

This is the kind of map where you can do whatever you like and not pay the consequences


My compromise for slow starting techs --> double ocean + fogbust warrior build -> Agriculture, AH, Wheel, BW

Multiple tech detours: grabbed masonry to setup failgold - finishing Pyramids is not ideal since w/ Charismatic + Calendar resources + Ivory/Gold you aren't happy capped, and you can run someone over with elephants

Traded HBR for Alphabet, Math --> Alphabet for Iron Working. 750 BC with 360 gold == Elephant/Catapult/Numids stack on border at 400 BC.

1AD Ran over Mehmed --> have Civil Service, 1 turn away from demanding Calendar for peace.

25 AD ---> nasty longbow upgrade surprise from Mehmed on the final turn, but that's okay. Massive trade deal --> Civil Service for 910 gold from Wang Kon.

Slower attack date via 6 cities means recovery is smooth --> obtaining 300 beakers w/ 4.5 captured cities not online.

Happiness cap at ~15 --> no need for Monarchy or Representation

 

[georgjorge]

@CarpoolKaraoke: Nicely done, impressive!

To 900AD, Deity:

Spoiler :

As others have shown, Elepult would definitely be a good option here. I went for the later attack date at Cuirassiers, which I think is the weaker option.

Wang Kon attacked me, but fortunately his attack was well-telegraphed, and he suicided a stack of six Swords/Spears against four Axes behind a Wall with an amphibious attack. Then the AP made peace (who says it isn't worth it?), and now we're best buddies. I also got my Woody II Axe up to 8 XP from that, so Heroic Epic unlocked!

Didn't cottage at all, turned the capital into a GP-farm with Great Library and National Epic, since it could support five (plus two from Great Library) Scientists with the food. Thus, I bulbed Philosophy, Paper, Education (x2) and Liberalism (partly), getting Military Tradition from it.

I made too many Numidian Cavalrys and then didn't get a Great Merchant, so I couldn't upgrade all of them. I also had no Iron, as Wang Kon had settled the only spot for it early with a boat ; ( so I had to pay some gold each turn to him for that. The stack I made before upgrading:

This cost me some turns before declaring war. I declared only in 820 AD - late. By 900 AD, I have taken most of Ramesses' wonders, including Pyramids and a Shrine. Mehmed is a pushover, but Willem already got Grenadiers, so I might look for war overseas in the meantime, because Sitting Bull and Gilgamesh are well behind the tech curve. Feeling good about a win here.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

What I like about CarpoolKaraoke's game is the

Spoiler :

focus.

Nothing fancy. City placement, tile improvements, units and buildings etc. Every decision directly serves the same purpose.

I would have been distracted by random things. A fishing boat to explore. Hanging Gardens for the population boast. Something else. And then sit there confused why I can't deity consistently.

 

[soundjata]

I have a question about the map @AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Was it designed so our island area is close to the domination limit? It looks really close

 

[soundjata]

Played till T111

Spoiler :

Captured a barb city with warriors then a few undefended Egyptian cities with jumbos.
Thebes has Great Wall and Mids ; Memphis has GLH.


Switched to Bureau and Rep,
Plan is to conquer the continent with trebs,
Giggles is scary,
Wang Kong and Mehmed are apparently plotting on the other continent

 

[AcaMetis]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Not by design, no.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Played till T111

Spoiler :

Captured a barb city with warriors then a few undefended Egyptian cities with jumbos.
Thebes has Great Wall and Mids ; Memphis has GLH.


Switched to Bureau and Rep,
Plan is to conquer the continent with trebs,
Giggles is scary,
Wang Kong and Mehmed are apparently plotting on the other continent

Spoiler :

Nice wonder haul!