Nobles' Club CLX: Gandhi of India

[Mikehendi]

re national wonders in OCC

Spoiler :

Discussion in the first thread I linked disputed whether Globe Theatre was appropriate. It pollutes the GP space with the possibility of Great Artists, and may not give all that much benefit since with each Forest Preserve you get more anyway. I don't think I ever hit my cap; was the issue until National Park.

If you leave out Globe Theatre, I'm not sure what if anything you'd build in its place, though. Probably nothing, like I did, since building research would probably be a better choice when there's nothing more urgent to spend on. I suppose there could be an argument for Red Cross since that give more GS points, but it comes rather late for that to make any difference.

a minor point re OCC:

Spoiler :

You can't build Aluminum Co without access to Coal, and NP kills that off. So building your spaceship is likely significantly slower unless you're lucky enough to get aluminum within the 5th ring (or maybe 6th; I forget if my city expanded that far).

You're probably right about not building GT, I forgot about the happiness from forest preserves. Spend those hammers on SPI temples instead would prevent artist pollution indeed. GT does allow you to keep on defying emancipation resolutions etc. without problems though.

I think the extra specialists and GP from national park and being able to grow 5-10 sizes more compensate for not having aluminum, it's (just) another 100% bonus on top of other boni like bureau, forge, factory, power. In the end game you can run as many engineers and priests as possible, probably a lot more then if you had no national park.

 

[May Day 10]

how do you guys have the discipline to keep forests around until late game?

Any in cities' BFCs?

 

[Mikehendi]

Don't research Bronze Working early

 

[Noble Zarkon]

If you leave out Globe Theatre, I'm not sure what if anything you'd build in its place, though. Probably nothing, like I did, since building research would probably be a better choice when there's nothing more urgent to spend on.

This is a general point so no spoilers necessary I reckon - although Forest Preserves are great for happy faces, the GT means you can defy any resolutions that come your way and also other Civs getting Emancipation isn't an issue for you. On balance I still think it's a good idea to build it.

 

[enKage]

how do you guys have the discipline to keep forests around until late game?

Any in cities' BFCs?

You have enough tiles not to chop forests in BFC. 2 fllodplains, 2 farms, quarry, the rest population can work forest PH for production or specialists (scientists give great specialists adding more hammers. Ichopped hills, and still had over 10 preserves. If you desperately need chopping, chop outside BFC, the forest may regrw

As for Globe - I made spiritual temples instead and built Globe at the end of the game because of emancipation combined with defying global civics from UN

 

[georgjorge]

@Mikehendi: Thanks for the response!

With Pyramids, I'm only working the two Corn and a couple of other farms in the capital for maximum research, which is probably why the land there is not really developed much. I made a few cottages in my second city (riverside), but research is so fast thanks to Pyramids that they might actually have slowed me down. I didn't really think about helper cities around the capital because I didn't want cottages there (as I either want to run specialists or whip) and because they would grow very slowly without any food ressources, and I generally don't found cities without a 4+ ressource, but that might not apply here...

The spy tips are great, I totally forgot about shared religion. Yes, I did get three Spies and build the Yard. Problem is that Darios doesn't have many techs that I don't have, and then only stuff that everyone has like Feudalism or Horseback Riding. I thought he would tech much faster!

EDIT: Update - the lack of cottages got me thinking on attacking earlier rather than later (wanted to wait for Cavalry). Which lead me to this...

Spoiler :

(could have been a few turns faster if I hadn't landed a FOURTH Great Spy instead of a Scientist (I ran six Scientists the entire time)).

...which lead to this (gotta love Police State)...



Twelve Curs is quite low for an attack, but it's early and Darios doesn't have a real stack to speak of, plus I got spies for revolts in the first two cities I attack. Let's see how the first war of the whole game goes.

 

[May Day 10]

Okay.
Teched Agro and Masonry first. Then went Bronze Working. Teched BW (no Bronze to be seen) and went immediately for the free Slavery. Then went for Wheel to connect cities. Pottery for Grnary and Cottages then Onto Writing for open borders. Stumbled onto a goody hut and got Iron Working! Some Iron around, but I was already committed to a City site.

Built Fast Worker, then 2 Warriors, after 2nd Warrior, grew to size 3 and started Settler. Hanging a Warrior back to be a fog buster/guard for the Settler. Scout and 2 Warriors are out scouting and getting experience. Went to Fast Worker to build road from City 1 to 2 and begin improving City 2 tiles. Went to Stonehenge in New Delhi with the Stone Bonus and started chopping after farming the Floodplain. City 2 placed.

Fast Worker hit each Corn for a Farm, then Mined the Gems, then farm the floodplain




Here it is

Gentle criticism please. I know Ill get grief for the 2nd city. I was thinking that site because there is food, good cottage sites, and it seals off the Persians a bit

 

[Ironlungs76]

I had a bash at this the other day on IMM.

Spoiler :

I found that the AI peace weights really counted against my usual philosophy of domination/conquest.

Hatty had most of the map converted to Judaism and there was not one single war (despite my converting Darius to Confucianism early on making him a pariah). I couldn't bribe anyone to war either as everyone was either Pleased or Friendly with everyone else

Cuir rush on Darius about 800AD, teching to Rifles, no sooner had I capitulated Darius and swung around for Hammy (another pariah in Hinduism incidentally) that Hatty decided to trade around rifles to everyone. Hammy upgraded his entire stack the turn after I attacked him.

AI rifles at c1100AD on IMM isn't exactly unheard of, but it's damned fast, especially when everyone had them!

And that's where I stopped

 

[georgjorge]

@Ironlungs76:

Spoiler :

I hear you...my Cuirassier attack is the first war all game as well. Not even one AI was worst enemy of someone else!

I don't know much about your situation, but Cavalry + Cannons (plus a few Rifles) is good until Infantry (and even then you beat them on offense and only need numbers for defense). Maybe you can go on conquering...

 

[Mikehendi]

@Georgjorge:

Spoiler :

Looking good, nice to see those spy points aren't going to waste!

@May Day:

Spoiler :

Well done, sounds like a solid opening to me
2 points:
- Settling to block off land is a valid reason, but you should make sure Darius can't settle in the gap between your cities and split you in two! So you shuld probably settle another city about 4N of you capital soon to connect your empire.
- What is your long-term plan for the capital? If you want to run specialists, farming the floodplain is a good idea, but if you want to go with cottaging, the 2 corn are more then enough for food (so you want to cottage the floodplain

@Irolungs:

Spoiler :

Yeah, that sucks, but don't despair! Go for steel, add a bunch of cannons to your stack and you are prtobably good to go for the rest of the game

 

[Ironlungs76]

@Ironlungs76:

Spoiler :

I hear you...my Cuirassier attack is the first war all game as well. Not even one AI was worst enemy of someone else!

I don't know much about your situation, but Cavalry + Cannons (plus a few Rifles) is good until Infantry (and even then you beat them on offense and only need numbers for defense). Maybe you can go on conquering...

Spoiler :

Yeah, I was headed that way but given the AI love-in I doubt I'll bother carrying on what with continual AP defying issues and whatnot.

Not sure what I'd do differently if I did replay it, I thought I was going along nicely, and Delhi is a lovely site, but the absence of Marble makes a Culture victory a lot harder so maybe just a Space victory?

I generally prefer smashing AI's around though, and sadly this cast of characters makes that approach rather more difficult than usual.

Thinking about it, I might try an early Construction rush if I can get Oracle CoL and run a few merchants to upgrade a load of warriors to axes maybe? That sounds like a plan

 

[georgjorge]

@Ironlungs:

Spoiler :

Well I'm trying out the Cuirassier plan as well...maybe the attack date might make the difference, I attacked Darios in 450AD so far (though on Deity so better tech trading opportunities but I didn't trade much). I'm curious how you funded your research, I relied almost exclusively on Representation specialists and didn't even get the Great Persons I wanted.

I don't understand the Construction strategy - if you want Construction, Oracle it (instead of Code of Laws)! Axes are very cheap, no need for upgrading Warriors. But it might not be the best plan here anyhow due to the amount of land everyone gets (almost everyone has 10+ cities in my game), which would rather call for some development and then an attack (Curs/Cavalry/Cannons).

 

[Ironlungs76]

@Ironlungs:

Spoiler :

I'm curious how you funded your research, I relied almost exclusively on Representation specialists and didn't even get the Great Persons I wanted.

Spoiler :

Mids Rep and I cottaged all the riverside. I was quite liberal with trading (probably my downfall in all honesty) to pick up cash when it was available but I didn't trade any dangerous military techs other than Guilds when it was becoming obsolete.

Spoiler :

I don't understand the Construction strategy - if you want Construction, Oracle it (instead of Code of Laws)! Axes are very cheap, no need for upgrading Warriors. But it might not be the best plan here anyhow due to the amount of land everyone gets (almost everyone has 10+ cities in my game), which would rather call for some development and then an attack (Curs/Cavalry/Cannons).

My (probably very daft) plan would be to Oracle CoL, switch to Caste and run as many Merchants as the food would allow (maybe 5 depending on the size of Delhi?). Then build warriors like they're going out of fashion. Then I would need to find out who builds the ToA. Send the Merchants to do a trade mission and then upgrade 20-30 warriors to Axes with the cash depending on how many GMs I got in the meantime...

All the while teching Construction for catapults...

Now I think about it it does seem rather counter-intuitive but it ought to work...

 

[georgjorge]

Deity, to 860AD:

Spoiler :

These spy revolts really made a difference in how many Curs survived an attack! I need to use them more often...

Darius capped at four cities as I don't need these cities anyway and he's well-liked. Next target: backwards Hammurabi, still a long way from Rifles.



I might even be able to take on Hatty before she gets Rifles, but even if not, Cavalry + Spies shouldn't do too badly against them - and Darius is researching Astronomy for me, so Airships are only a bulb and a tech away after that. I like my chances for winning this one. Only possible danger: multiple defensive pacts - most AI don't have Military Tradition yet, but once they have, their mutual likings might make me fight a two-front war.

Also, shockingly Washington went into red fist mode - the first time an AI did that in this game.

 

[Ironlungs76]

Deity, to 860AD:

Spoiler :

Also, shockingly Washington went into red fist mode - the first time an AI did that in this game.

Ha, that's a rarity on this map. I saw Ghandi red fist in another game the other day that's even rarer!

Good luck sounds like you're on your way!

 

[May Day 10]

Next turn set
2560 BC - 1680 BC

Lost a scout to some lions. Was attacked on a hill across a river and still went down.
Built Stonehenge after a couple turns. Was tempted by a GW in 7 turns but opted for a Granary.

Discovered Writing. Signed open borders with all known Civs. Went on to Alphabet for tech trading.

Whipped Granary in Delhi. Then Settler which I whipped to go back down to 3 and happy. Settled 3rd city next to Iron 4N of Delhi

Whipped a Library in Delhi and am going for GW in 6 turns and probably another whip.

Discovered Alphabet. Went onto Math. I do see a lot of back-techs, but none really seem necessary to me yet. I am figuring I have missed something crucial here?


Here it is? Any thoughts? I think I am going to settle City 4 1SE of Cows South of Delhi

 

[georgjorge]

@May Day: Some good things in your save - I like the city locations - but the most important thing lacking is an overall plan, specifically: How are you going to win this game? Are you going to be attacking your neighbours, and if so, with which techs? How are you going to fund your research? These things often have impact on very early decisions (like farming or cottaging a Floodplain, building or not building a wonder).

For example, I'm not sure why you are building the Great Wall - barbs on Prince aren't very dangerous. You get some Great People points, but if you want Delhi to be your source for those I'd rather get the Pyramids as soon as possible and start running scientists.

Also, why tech Mathematics (unless you're going for Construction and Catapults)? It's not such a good tech and AI often tech it very early (though maybe not on Prince).

Tip for posting screenshots: Just zoom out a bit more and make one picture with city dots with Alt + X (if you have BUG mod installed) instead of multiple pictures, makes it easier to give advice.

 

[May Day 10]

Thanks georgjorge. Ill do that screenshot alt x trick. I am using the Bug Mod.

Choosing a path to victory is a HUGE weakness in my game and probably the one place I really need to learn. My games either go a couple ways: I stumble out of the gate (not on Noble anymore which is why I moved up) and eventually get hammered by an Aggressive Civ.
Or I leverage a decent advantage, usually by rushing Axemen or an early UU... keep going... But stagnate a bit. Keep a sizeable lead, tech ahead, but never moving toward a victory condition. Maybe rush a nearby Civ on Cavalry and Cats/Cannons. Everything finds its level and relative peace until the very late game where I cruise to a Space victory or sometimes have the population dominated enough to get the Diplo.

 

[georgjorge]

Deity, gave up on this game in 1480AD...

Spoiler :

Things are running smoothly as I have already vassaled Darius and am now attacking backwards Hammurabi. After that, a visit to Egypt...



...making for a rather fast taking of all Egyptian cities. But despite being the only one in the AP religion and having twice the votes of the second biggest AI, I still can't win religious victory even if I spread Hindu in all cities and grow them. So I have to take on Wang Kon, who by that time has Infantry and Cannons (and very soon Machine Guns). No problem, right? I have so many Cavalry and Airships and Spies...

Things look promising:





But then, after taking Seoul, despite having 1.1 times Wang's power, I just can't get any further. Even with city revolts. He has too much Infantry, and I lose too many Cavalry attacking them, and getting counterattacked by Cannons. So I call it quits.

Of course, the game is not unwinnable from an earlier position - I have Steel and could whip and buy 40+ Cannons for a long and tedious siege war. But I really thought that so much Cavalry could do it on its own.

Thanks for the game! It was great fun to play...

 

[MegaLurker]

Georg, it looks to me like you were in a position to win by land/pop % had you taken the Korean or German cities. Perhaps Germany was the easier target at that point but you attacked Korea because they were strongest and you were trying to chain-vassal. Very winnable, particularly with some cannons.