Nobles' Club 350: Hatshepsut of Egypt

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Hatshepsut of Egypt, whom we last played in NC 274; we last played the Egyptians under Ramesses II in NC 330. The Egyptians start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: Hatshepsut is Creative and Spiritual. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Spiritual allows you to swap state religion/civics without suffering Anarchy, and gives a +100% bonus to all Temples.
• The UB: The Obelisk, a Monument with 2 Priest slots. Getting very early Great Prophets is more for the AI than the player, since the former should be left to the task of founding and spreading religions while the player builds up their empire and bulbs their way through the tech tree. But if you're looking to rush someone who hasn't build a Shrine yet early, or you want any Great Person to start a Golden Age, or you actually do want a Great Prophet to pull some manner of clever scheme, the Obelisk will allow you to get out the required Great Person that much easier, and earlier.
• The UU: The War Chariot, a Chariot with 5 and innate immunity to First Strike. A straight upgrade over the basic chariot, particularly against archers, these guys stand a chance at winning fights that regular chariots don't.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Continents, Temperate Climate, Medium Sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

None.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 350 Hatshepsut Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Not sure what to do in this situation. Could settle 1N or 2N or grab the plains cow, but spending a turn moving to grab a plains cow when the capitol is drowning in forests doesn't seem better than SIP and getting to Bronze Working a turn earlier. Could send the Warrior 1SE and, failing to find anything enticing, move/settle 1W/1NW to try and grab more river tiles. I guess it ultimately depends on what the warrior finds, but if he doesn't find a clear winner I don't know which tile gets the prize of being our capitol.

That's my read, anyway. What do the experts think?

 

[chinemol]

may be suicidal, but settling the dye is tempting, would get enough commerce to start and, if no food, then chopping to oblivion. would save 2N for a good second city

 

[sampsa]

settling the dye is tempting

 

[sampsa]

I think warrior SE, likely SIP, then grab the cow with 2nd/3rd city to the NE, likely on the ph.

 

[soundjata]

Yeah if it ain't broken don't try to fix it
Mining > BW
Farm the dye > chop everything.

edit @AcaMetis the zip file appears broken to me
It works now...

 

[AcaMetis]

Maybe not optimal, but I do like the idea of SIP -> Farm Corn -> Road Corn -> Farm Dye. Delays the dye farm by one turn, but saves a turn getting settler 2 to the plains hill and halfway finishes connecting the two cities later on.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler :

warrior move prevented it, it was a bad idea...

 

[Snowbird]

Settle on corn, research AH, kill a couple of neighbors. This being NC horsies should be close.

 

[konata_LS]

Emperor NHNE from BC4000 to 100AD

Spoiler :

Settled on the banana on T1. Capital gem is nice but unfortunately it's covered under jungle.


Moving the mouse over our score shows there are more than 1000 land tiles. Usually I'd like to avoid an early rush in such a big map, because the neighbours are often far and there is enough room for peaceful expansion. That was why I tried to expand peacefully in my first attempt. Chopped settlers and workers, built a few cities, then I got Axe rushed by Peter up north . WCs were great on offence but they performed poorly on defense, also there was no copper in my land (= unable to build metal units before IW). TBH I really didn't want to rush Peter, because his land was terrible: his capital with a very short river, no gold no fur; surrounded by riverless tundra and ice. Unfortunately Peter's DoW told me that the peaceful option was not available here .

So I started the second attempt and played more aggressively. I war chariots rush Peter and sent him to heaven T57. I kept Moscow because the city had marble and copper; had to raze St-Petersburg otherwise I would quickly go on strike.


No DoW from Peter anymore. Meanwhile Peter's disappearance led to another problems: barbarians horde kept coming from the northern tundra and ice. Had to spam 7 or 8 war chariots to fog bust the whole northern area, a huge burden for the economy .

The land around my capital was far from great: gem needed iron working; dye needed calendar; many jungle tiles. Built CRE libraries in most of the cities and ran some scientists. Finally got 25AD alphabet so that my cities could build . However, the situation in 1AD looked quite hopeless:
Willem already got theology and charged towards paper, two turns later Suleiman got a GScientist and he bulbed philosophy. Willem's religion spread to Suleiman as well and they traded like crazy. It was evidently impossible for me to recover from such situations, so I clicked on "Retire" .

Both of my attempts failed. It's time to admit the defeat .

Hatty's traits are nice, her UUs are strong, but for new players, continents maps (more than 1000 land tiles) are often tougher than pangaea ones (usually 650 to 800 tiles). Maybe it's too early for me to try continents maps on emperor with a leader who is neither FIN or PHI .

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Maps bucking expectations once again .

 

[chinemol]

Emperor NHNE from BC4000 to 100AD

Spoiler :

Settled on the banana on T1. Capital gem is nice but unfortunately it's covered under jungle.


Moving the mouse over our score shows there are more than 1000 land tiles. Usually I'd like to avoid an early rush in such a big map, because the neighbours are often far and there is enough room for peaceful expansion. That was why I tried to expand peacefully in my first attempt. Chopped settlers and workers, built a few cities, then I got Axe rushed by Peter up north . WCs were great on offence but they performed poorly on defense, also there was no copper in my land (= unable to build metal units before IW). TBH I really didn't want to rush Peter, because his land was terrible: his capital with a very short river, no gold no fur; surrounded by riverless tundra and ice. Unfortunately Peter's DoW told me that the peaceful option was not available here .

So I started the second attempt and played more aggressively. I war chariots rush Peter and sent him to heaven T57. I kept Moscow because the city had marble and copper; had to raze St-Petersburg otherwise I would quickly go on strike.


No DoW from Peter anymore. Meanwhile Peter's disappearance led to another problems: barbarians horde kept coming from the northern tundra and ice. Had to spam 7 or 8 war chariots to fog bust the whole northern area, a huge burden for the economy .

The land around my capital was far from great: gem needed iron working; dye needed calendar; many jungle tiles. Built CRE libraries in most of the cities and ran some scientists. Finally got 25AD alphabet so that my cities could build . However, the situation in 1AD looked quite hopeless:
Willem already got theology and charged towards paper, two turns later Suleiman got a GScientist and he bulbed philosophy. Willem's religion spread to Suleiman as well and they traded like crazy. It was evidently impossible for me to recover from such situations, so I clicked on "Retire" .

Both of my attempts failed. It's time to admit the defeat .

Hatty's traits are nice, her UUs are strong, but for new players, continents maps (more than 1000 land tiles) are often tougher than pangaea ones (usually 650 to 800 tiles). Maybe it's too early for me to try continents maps on emperor with a leader who is neither FIN or PHI .

Spoiler :

gifted a city to peter and made him pleased. might still plot, but less likely. in my game sule and willem are in difrent religions, so that's easier. if you try a third time, you could try the city gift thing for peter, his land is bad for taking. you could even gift one to willem (creative) next to sulle to poison their relation from an early stage

 

[konata_LS]

Spoiler :

gifted a city to peter and made him pleased. might still plot, but less likely. in my game sule and willem are in difrent religions, so that's easier. if you try a third time, you could try the city gift thing for peter, his land is bad for taking. you could even gift one to willem (creative) next to sulle to poison their relation from an early stage

Spoiler :

Thanks for the advice. Yes, city gifting is a good idea. The diplo situation would have been better if Willem and Sully adopted different religions and / or had border tentions. Good luck for your game.

Spoiler :

Maps bucking expectations once again .

Spoiler :

Interesting. What were your initial expectations of this map?
When I got attacked by Peter in my first attempt, I thought "AcaMetis probably wants us to attack the AI before getting attacked; he wants to teach us war chariots can destroy the AIs even they have capital copper" . But once again it turns out that is not what you planned.

 

[GTFGreg]

Deity NHNE, turn 80

Spoiler :

Anyone else try DOWing Peter with UU? That capital copper was a pain to contain. Especially since his third city settled next to iron. Maybe if I managed to get early woodsman warrior on forested hill next to copper that would have prevented the early link up, but he teched BW at like turn 18 for me, so that would've been a tall ask. Even with hindsight. Oh well, at least I have him contained to 3 cities without hurting my economy too much due to that sweet sweet cottage land.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Interesting. What were your initial expectations of this map?

Something along the lines of "oh hey, lots of nice (albeit jungle covered, nothing a couple of extra workers and Iron Working can't solve) land the player can peacefully settle while religiously divided neighbours fail to stop them".

Did not foresee the possibility of the Peter axe rush, or either Willem/Sully not founding their own religion .

 

[GTFGreg]

Deity NHNE, turn 80

Spoiler :

Anyone else try DOWing Peter with UU? That capital copper was a pain to contain. Especially since his third city settled next to iron. Maybe if I managed to get early woodsman warrior on forested hill next to copper that would have prevented the early link up, but he teched BW at like turn 18 for me, so that would've been a tall ask. Even with hindsight. Oh well, at least I have him contained to 3 cities without hurting my economy too much due to that sweet sweet cottage land.

Spoiler :

So I replayed a War Chariot rush on Peter. Only major change was going AH before Mining, BW. With that, he never connects his copper and you can successfully wipe him by turn 90 or so. For fun (since I don't consider restarts "real games" I allow myself to try some stuff) I tried turning around and using the remaining War Chariots with newly minted catapults to take a city or two off William. Alas, he picked up Feudalism right before the assault. Only one possible early elimination (on deity) then.

 

[Hurricane Jane]

Spoiler :

Has been a long time since I picked this game up. Had worked my ways up to somewhat decent level all those years ago so thought Prince would be good.

Found neighbour Peter quickly and then immediately started building WC when connected to Horses. Quickly took him out and stole 2 workers, and installed Moscow. This was a mistake I think, I did not have the finances to sustain and it was too far away. The bronze was too tempting though. Then also took out Willem to the south, he also was just about to connect bronze but did not even have Archery, so was an easy target. Amsterdam was a holy city so kept that as well.

Had too few workers though so some of my cities were all over the place and not working quality tiles. Also Amsterdam and Moscow were just too far from home. Build Mids for failgold, but obviously on lower level this took ages. Really wanted to tech Calendar quickly because it would up my happy cap by a whopping 3 and also increase commerce a lot. (Dye/Incense/Silk) Mids failgold basically came just when I was almost going on strike, which was pretty tight. When failgold came in, I could quickly tech Calendar through all my Lib specialists and now I'm pretty much fine. I didn't really have many non-worker units (8-10) so the reason eco crippled was just cities too far and too little workers (maybe also inefficient use)

This leads me to two questions:
- Should I have razed either or both capitals? I think I def should have razed Moscow. Holy city is more interesting because it can provide money. Also, Amsterdam was closer and was space for which I had to compete with Sully.
- Is there a rule of thumb for worker/city ratio in early game? Also, is there additional cost for every worker I produce? Can't seem to remember and I couldn't really find out an answer when I looked it up.

 

[AcaMetis]

Is there a rule of thumb for worker/city ratio in early game? Also, is there additional cost for every worker I produce? Can't seem to remember and I couldn't really find out an answer when I looked it up.

It depends on the situation, you'll need more workers if you have to cut down entire (rain)forests and/or improve many floodplains than if all of your cities are coastal and many are working/sharing seafood, but a general rule of thumb is 1.5-2 workers per city. Ultimately if you're keeping up with tile improvements, placing roads and chopping you've got enough workers, and the fewer workers you need to make that happen, the better.

There's no additional cost insofar that each worker costs more hammers to produce than the last, but there is unit supply cost (which should not be much of a concern on Prince difficulty) and the simple opportunity cost of each worker produced stalling a city's growth. Of course on the flipside a city growing into unhappiness or unimproved tiles wouldn't accomplish much, so you might consider building a worker instead in that case.

 

[Hurricane Jane]

It depends on the situation, you'll need more workers if you have to cut down entire (rain)forests and/or improve many floodplains than if all of your cities are coastal and many are working/sharing seafood, but a general rule of thumb is 1.5-2 workers per city. Ultimately if you're keeping up with tile improvements, placing roads and chopping you've got enough workers, and the fewer workers you need to make that happen, the better.

There's no additional cost insofar that each worker costs more hammers to produce than the last, but there is unit supply cost (which should not be much of a concern on Prince difficulty) and the simple opportunity cost of each worker produced stalling a city's growth. Of course on the flipside a city growing into unhappiness or unimproved tiles wouldn't accomplish much, so you might consider building a worker instead in that case.

The growth stalling was no issue to me. If the unit supply cost scales quite favorably (not 1 gold per worker or something like that), I should have built more workers without a doubt.

 

[sampsa]

but a general rule of thumb is 1.5-2 workers per city.

Damn, that's a lot. I tend to go over 1.0 only if there is jungle to chop.