Nobles' Club XL: Mehmed II of the Ottomans

[Amao]

One question about the map, since I haven't read through other write-ups yet:

Spoiler :

I don't often play Big and Small (or islands) maps. Do you normally find this number of huts? Ican't ever remember playing a maps with this many huts.

That's our host's gift for this game only, enjoy!

 

[dalamb]

@Sirian: I've been thinking about moving up to Prince, but need to make sure I can actually finish more games, not just "do well" and get tired of playing.

@Trystero:

Spoiler :

I put in extra huts on what looked to me like otherwise useless islands. There's probably twice as many as normal -- and seemingly even more since the AI proved ignorant about exploring with galley+scout, prefering fishing boats.

I don't plan on doing so again -- but who knows what mad fit might strike?

 

[dalamb]

4000-3000 BC with dotmap
3000-850 BC
850-125 BC
125 BC - 490 AD

A little bit of conquest:

Spoiler :

This time around, I advanced towards space technologies and conquered my nearest neighbours, Mansa and Sitting Bull. Last round I was close to Education, so I waited until Gunpowder to start building Janissaries. The current map:



I took over Mansa in two stages. By 1280 AD I conquered the mainland, including Timbuktu with its two shrines (Judaism and Hinduism), then made peace while I waited for Astronomy and enough galleons to invade his islands. Now that I'm taking a break from warfare I expect to spread both as far as possible -- once city each will churn out missionaries for as long as possible, likely crowding all 3 onto a galleon to hit several AI cities in short succession (in case civics switches are needed to get them out of Theocracy: can't count on them staying out for too many turns). Then in 1435 AD I invaded his islands and finished him off in 1465, eliminating that nasty "we yearn to rejoin our motherland" unhappiness penalty.

I always planned to take out Sitting Bull eventually since if he closed borders Cahokia would interfere with my sea movements significantly. So, in 1240 AD I agreed:

But if Rags were keeping track, he'd notice I never did anything about it, and made peace in 1305 AD as soon as Sitting Bull would talk to me again. Then in 1470 AD when I was a couple of turns away from invading on my own:

Willem and his vassal Ramesses had been at war with Sitting Bull for a while but I didn't notice anybody capturing anybody else' cities. In any case I finished off SB just now (1560 AD) and am aiming to consolidate before doing anything else. I need infrastructure, especally courthouses, and if I go to war again I want nice comforting destroyers to protect me.

Some quests look to me like they were/are actually useful:

Spoiler :

I got the Best Defence quest:

Quest7:
Best Defense
Prereq: ENGINEERING
Obsolete: RIFLING or RAILROAD or ECONOMICS
Active/Weight: 30/400
Aim:
Build default number of players for this world size castles (7 for standard)
Result:
1.All Melee units gain the City Garrison 1 promotion
2.gain +3 Attitude with all AIs you have met
3.IF you control the Great Wall gain +25 Espionage points for the Great Wall

A lot of people don't bother because the bonus trade route only lasts "a short time" but I didn't go for Economics until 1530, so did get a few years from even the last castle. I finished in 1345 and took the improvement in relations:

This may have helped quite a bit, since everybody but Cathy is happy with me:


I also got the Blessed Sea quest:

Quest1:
Blessed Sea
Prereq: GALLEY or CARAVEL or GALLEON AND State Religion BUDDHISM or CONFUCIANISM or TAOISM AND Minimum number of Landmasses is 2*default number of players for this map size (12 for standard) AND Maximum number of Landmasses you have cities on is 0.5*default number of players for this map size (3 for standard)
Obsolete: INDUSTRIALISM
Active/Weight: 85/300
Aim:
Have cities on 1.5*default number of players for this map size (10 for standard) landmasses while never switching State Religion
Result:
1.convert 20 own cities to your state religion
2.gain a temple in every city size 5 or more
3.get one great prophet unit

It's not that hard to achieve on this map (I currently have 5/10 with 4 more nearby), and maybe worthwhile in its own right if I settle near seafood and found Sid's Sushi.

Some strategy questions:

Spoiler :

1. 9 turns of research at 40% gets me Democracy and thus Universal Suffrage. Seems like that would help a lot with building infrastructure in all my recently-conquered cities, especially since I have lots of gold at the moment. Is it worth doing soon?
2. Am I going to have to fight Willem and his vassal Ramesses eventually? Willem is doing well on the power chart and has a fair bit of territory.
   
   I'm ahead in tech but not overwhelmingly so.
   
3. Is Ragnar likely to be a problem? Everybody but Catherine is friendly, but Rags is next most powerful after Willem.

 

[BigTime]

@ Dalamb

Spoiler :

Your game looks well in hand. With that much land and you running away in tech, space, dom, diplo, hell, even culture are all plausible. With that much raw land, you can just tech away with it, or spit out a lot of military and conquer everybody else. With that best defence quest, diplo should be pretty easy and quick if you want to win that way.

If Rag is friendly, he can't declare on you. Nor can Williem. Demo could be nice, but I can't tell if you have a lot of cottages. Really, just beelining Mass Media would probably net you a victory.

 

[Groogaroo]

@Dalamb

Spoiler :

I'm ahead in tech but not overwhelmingly so.

I'd like to see your idea of overwhelming. Your racing away in the lead here, the games in the bag.

Can't see rags troubling you, your more than double his power rating.

 

[dalamb]

@BigTime,Groogaroo: I guess I don't really know how to read the tech advisor properly, since I didn't think I was so far ahead.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

I have a question regarding the @%$#$^ beggars of this game: I got asked for a lot of techs during the game, which I granted, hoping to keep relationships. Katy in particular was begging almost constantly, I think she got more than 6-7 techs from me. And others asked me for techs as well. And yet, I never get any tech when I ask it as a favour from a friend. I offer them, as requested "gifts", techs worth 10 times more than what I ask for as "gifts" and they refuse.

Is there any way to get the AI to behave nobly? If you refuse to help, you lose relationships, if they refuse to help, you just get annoyed, but you wish to get along so you go on, upset with the behaviour of the AI.

I have observed Kaytie's solution, and yes, it sure solves the problem. But any other solution?

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

I think diff AI's have different rates for how much they ask and how mad they get when you say no. Kathy is VERY high maintainance she will ask a lot and gives hgh negative diplo hit if you say no. I dont think you can ever change the behavior. Only thing you CAN do if goal is to avoid giving away too many techs but still have good relations is try to balance it with other things. So that overall there are enuff more plusses than minuses to keep em at friendly or at least at pleased if they are one of the ai's that wont go into war planning at pleased although that wont keep a lot of ai's from being bribed at pleased all of them cant be at friendly with the exception of Kathy.

Or you can just use space ninjas hehe

Kaytie

 

[namufot]

First time posting after lurking for a long time. Start looked nice =]

Monarch / Epic to 10AD

Spoiler :

Moved my Warrior south to see some cows so I decided to settle 1SE. Still will get a quick worker being able to work a 3H tile and the EXP bonus. Starting techs were hunting -> ah -> mining-> BW -> myst -> archery
build: worker -> warrior x2 -> worker -> settler
Got a bunch of huts netting 253g. Meet MM 3725BC in the south.

Found MM's land down south, planning to block him off. 3075BC found some horses to the east.

2700BC BW in. 2500BC found my 2nd city on the ivory south. Since the map was Big and Small I decided to go for GLH. Teched fishing -> sailing -> masonry. Chopping out a second settler in my capitol. Sent this settler to the east for my third city the fishx2/horse/ivory/pig/corn city. the 4th city would be to complete the block on MM, but it will suck until i get IW.

1675BC Writing in. I start on IW to get my 4th city up and running.

1375BC IW 1 turn from being in. Started fishx2/pig/corn city on a GS 22 turns until it arrives. I also founded my 5th city north of the cap, cows/clamx2/corn.

1175BC GLH in. I've got MM blocked and I haven't scouted where SB's land is but I will just continue to expand his way for a bit. I need to get a metal city up. Settle the copper soon after.

825BC First GS out and I use him to build an academy @ the capitol.

600BC Lit in. Gonna start Glib in fishx2 city soon.

410BC Finally got a 3rd promotion for an archer so I can build HE. Currency 1 turn from completion. Going for CoL next. From scouting out SB I saw how his capitol was placed... lol what is that. I just filled in the jungle area near me before settling the rest of the continent.

170BC GLib in @ Fish x2 city. HE 1 turn from finishing in southern city bordering MM. I'm going to continue settle my continent and get a city on the island to get iron and some overseas routes.

Stopped at 10AD right when civil service finished. I met Willem who might be able to pose some challenge, he founded Buddhism, has 8 cities and seems to be doing okay in tech. Maybe I'll trade him something for monarchy to switch both civics at once.

The empire is looking pretty strong right now. I just settled my 11th city on the island north of the cap to get some more trade route $$. Although out of the hut that was there popped out 3 warriors so hopefully my defense holds.

Plan? Anything is possible with GLH and the amount of land I still have left to settle. I will definitely try to settle as many cities as possible and hopefully keep any of the AI's from settling on my continent. Once that is complete, well anything is possible I think. The next tech is MC I think.

warning big pictures:

Spoiler :

 

[dalamb]

@namufot: Welcome to CivFanatics, and to the Nobles' Club!

 

[yanner39]

Great thread, very informative. This will be my first crack at one of these. I find it intimidating at the REXing some of you are doing. If I get 6 cities by 1AD, I'm happy. But by looking at some of the screenshots, this is something my game is lacking. Can anyone offer tips or hints as to how it's best to do this? What are some rules or habits used? Would it be like, settle 6th city, build worker and settler first, then let the city grow? I didn't see any articles in the War Academy.

I mean, I realize that my capital is the best settlers/workers production early in the game, especially when it reaches its health/happy cap. But after a while, it has to start growing. What builds are put aside in order to build a settler? I also find that trying to build a military to fight off barbs takes away from expanding.

I do pretty well at Noble level right now, but I feel that to move up to the next levels, I need to master REXing.

 

[ilikepies]

Noble/Normal
1180 AD

Spoiler :

I used a Great Artist to get a Golden Age and propelled myself to Liberalism, picking up Gunpowder as the new tech. Time to start mass producing energies. I’m still so far ahead it’s almost a joke. I think I’m getting too good for Noble…

1300 AD

Spoiler :

I have a force of 1 catapult, 3 janissaries, and 3 macemen on Mansa’s border to attack (his cities have almost no garrison) and three times more on the way. Plus my units are Combat-promoted Janissaries, which makes it about 12.5 strength vs 6 or 7. Die, Mansa!

 

[KaytieKat]

Great thread, very informative. This will be my first crack at one of these. I find it intimidating at the REXing some of you are doing. If I get 6 cities by 1AD, I'm happy. But by looking at some of the screenshots, this is something my game is lacking. Can anyone offer tips or hints as to how it's best to do this? What are some rules or habits used? Would it be like, settle 6th city, build worker and settler first, then let the city grow? I didn't see any articles in the War Academy.

I mean, I realize that my capital is the best settlers/workers production early in the game, especially when it reaches its health/happy cap. But after a while, it has to start growing. What builds are put aside in order to build a settler? I also find that trying to build a military to fight off barbs takes away from expanding.

I do pretty well at Noble level right now, but I feel that to move up to the next levels, I need to master REXing.

Short tips for rexing.

The main builds you skip are wonders. Use the chops you would have used on the shinies for your settlers. And dont 4get the whip either.

After worker techs you have to prioritize techs to help with maintainance costs as you expand. You want at LEAST pottery and hopefully writing done BEFORE costs get too. Then make CoL for courthouses and currency (not so much for the markets or even extra trade routes--although it is handy --but for the ablity to build wealth as needed) priorities

LOTS of people like alphabet too since it on way to currency and it lets you build research and on higher levels it handy trade bate. I dont really like it as much on lower levels just cuz on noble by time you tech it AI"s havent teched ANYTHING worth trading for (trading it for things like fishing and hunting not all that appealing for me) so you STILL have to sometimes tech IW (the tech most people tech alpha in order to trade for from the AI's) yourself. PLUS even tho they have NOTHING worth trading for it leaves you open for TONS of begging/demands for techs which is just a pain. I usually go math(which costs less beakers, boosts your chopping and gets you closer to construction)/currency cuz of that. Although technically it probably IS a bad habit since once you get to levels like monarch or higher alphabet/currency will be better move.

As for barbs you have to learn to use fogbusting/spawnbusting tactics to keep barbies away with as few units as you can.

Kaytie

 

[_Tiberius_]

Noble/Epic

Spoiler :

Turned out to be a cake walk after following Gocho's strategy. I actually ended up having the same 3 core cities of Istanbul, Edirne, and Ankara. All three became super powerhouse cities really early, and I soon flew ahead tech-wise (I was about an age or two ahead of everyone the whole game.) I played peaceful for the first half of the game, blocking of Mansa Musa and expanding into the rest of the continent, plus the islands. I also ended up founding both Judaism and Christianity in Edirne and spread Christianity to SB, WoV, and Mansa (though he converted to Judaism later since it naturally spread to more of his cities. Whatever. Gave me more reason to attack him anyway.)

In 800 AD, I attacked Mansa with an SOD of Swordsmen and Catapults, which took out half his empire in one swing, though his Skirmishers were able to put up one hell of a fight. I started running out of troops, but I was beelining Gunpowder through Theology -> Paper -> Education. I was a few turns away, so I decided to wait until I had a couple Jannisaries to throw at Mali. I completely skipped Macemen, btw. Anyway, I took him out by 1200 AD, which was actually longer than I had hoped, and I now had the entire continent to myself. Well, at this point I had researched optics, so when I found Cathy and saw that she was blocked in by Ragnar, I researched Astronomy and booked it to her country with my leftover Janissaries. As a matter of fact, by the time I had enough Galleons, I had upgraded them to infantry. My tech rate was ridiculous, seriously...

Right when I attacked Cathy, she vassalized to Ragnar, so I was fighting both of them. More land for me I thought. I took their entire continent and jumped over to Nidaros and took half of Ragnar's continent before he capitulated to me. On the same turn, Egypt decided to vassalize to me too. Goody. Cathy was gone, and two other rivals were my vassals. All was good.

I turned around and blew through SB's land. He was still defending with archers!!! I decimated him pretty quickly. I was worried that he would vassalize to Willem before I destroyed him, but he didn't, so I just took the whole damn continent. Won a Domination Victory after that point. Pretty easy game. The start was awesome, but made the game a bit too easy.

 

[CBPE]

Any tips for me?

Thank you

 

[Amao]

Monarch/Normal 1000AD

Spoiler :

My hut economy was ok. I popped at least Music and Astro, and probably HBR as well in this period. Tech wise, I got Education by 100AD, and then decided to delay Lib since no one was close. And indeed, no one had Education at 1000AD, except me. With all the tech leads and Mansa going all the other branches that I have not researched. I decided to go for all the workshop enhancement first and then steel for wars. So, after I used the next GS to bulb the Printing Press, I went for Gunpowder (400AD), Feudalism (540), Guild (600), Chemistry (700) (planned to used the next GS, however I popped a GE, which I intended for Mining Inc if the game goes that far), and finally Steel in (940). And I also exchanged Theology, Compass(?), Machinery, Drama, Diving Right, and Optics from Mansa.

Sometime in this period, I bought Ram into warr against Kate hoping this would help Mansa declare on Kate and got him out of busy state so that he can vessal to me. However, Mansa was just busy. So, I started to build up my army so that Mansa can't have enough army to declare on me, just in case. Then in 7th century, I figured that SB is so weak that I have to take his land. And it's also about time to use all these hammer enhancement to build up my army. And everybody except SB was busy now. Kate somehow managed to pull Rag into war, who in turn just destroyed one of Ram's city. So, Ram probably will capitulate to Rag sometime, or just made peace since I'm not sure if they have Feud yet. Mansa hated WoV most now. But I really don't know whom he wants to declare. I really don't want to declare on him to get him vessaled in this game.

War on SB is just step by step, no surprise. Just mass Treb/Cat/Elephant/Macemen against archers and some dog soilder. I'm just wondering how many I should keep on his island so that it won't make my conquering to difficult to manage finacially because I want to go for conquest win for now.

I forgot to get 6 universities quick enough for the capital to enjoy the oxford yet. I also lost the GLib race to WoV. But it doesn't matter much considering I have 9 specialist spot for the GP farm city. However, I'll remember this and will have WoV pay more than that later. Since I've got a GE, I'm going the for the corporation, railroad, biology route for those 2 corps. Just dunno if there is enough time to set up a money center with wall street.

well, the city i'm traveling having trouble with the photo upload site. So I'll have to wait for tmr or so to upload my screen shots. To summarize, I'm having 19 cities now (1 from barb, 3 from SB, and destroyed one of SB's), 800+ beakers researching for Economy in a Gold Age used the GA from Music. I'll wipe out SB, and WoV is the next target. And I'm hoping to finish my conquest before the next check point, ie. 1500AD. We'll see...

 

[Amao]

Any tips for me?

Thank you

Spoiler :

I took your 1000AD save for a comparison since I have trouble seeing your screenshots. Here is my observations: 1) you don't have enough workers, you have 10 cities with 11 workers, and way too many unimproved land than mine. 2) you don't have enough cottages. and 1000AD, I have 2 cottage cities and one GP farm who used mainly for scientist specialists. Just take a look at my 1AD pictures. 3) you should get a GS so far and build at least one academy to boost your science output. I actually built 2 academy in both of my cottage cities. That's about it, you can also populate the other island in the north west. For a religious win, you'll need to at least spread your religion to the other 2 civs and got more people loving you more than mansa. For space win, you definitely need more cottages.

 

[yanner39]

Short tips for rexing.

The main builds you skip are wonders. Use the chops you would have used on the shinies for your settlers. And dont 4get the whip either.

After worker techs you have to prioritize techs to help with maintainance costs as you expand. You want at LEAST pottery and hopefully writing done BEFORE costs get too. Then make CoL for courthouses and currency (not so much for the markets or even extra trade routes--although it is handy --but for the ablity to build wealth as needed) priorities

LOTS of people like alphabet too since it on way to currency and it lets you build research and on higher levels it handy trade bate. I dont really like it as much on lower levels just cuz on noble by time you tech it AI"s havent teched ANYTHING worth trading for (trading it for things like fishing and hunting not all that appealing for me) so you STILL have to sometimes tech IW (the tech most people tech alpha in order to trade for from the AI's) yourself. PLUS even tho they have NOTHING worth trading for it leaves you open for TONS of begging/demands for techs which is just a pain. I usually go math(which costs less beakers, boosts your chopping and gets you closer to construction)/currency cuz of that. Although technically it probably IS a bad habit since once you get to levels like monarch or higher alphabet/currency will be better move.

As for barbs you have to learn to use fogbusting/spawnbusting tactics to keep barbies away with as few units as you can.

Kaytie

Thanks for this.

Actually, I get it now. A lot of of what you say, I do already, especially the tech paths, as well as not building wonders. After my post, I started a quick game just for the REX and focused on getting settlers out quickly. In my case, it really is just a question of forcing myself to do it. I chop well, but I don't use the whip well enough. Again, in my quick game, I forced myself to whip/chop to get these settlers/workers out. Also, I was probably focusing more on building my military earlier on.

For the barbs, I know some people play with Barbs off so it probably does give them an edge. For me, I need to do a better job spawnbusting.

 

[GGS]

Prince/Epic. 1610 AD.

Spoiler :

On the military front, Willem declared on Sitting Bull in 1285 - the first team against the first target. They were still at it in 1445 when the Ottomans were ready to move against Sitting Bull's cities to the east - three burned, two kept. Unfortunately (so, the high command used somewhat stronger language), as the invasion fleet was being prepared for Cahokia and its crucial strait Sitting Bull became a Dutch vassal in 1475.

On the tech front, the serious lead continued built on three cities at 334 BPT one of which is a 54 per turn GPF. Modest numbers in some games, but not in this one. It was indeed possible to reach economics (1345) before pre-researched liberalism (1350) which brought in steel. In fact, the Ottomans currently have machine guns and no other power has gunpowder.

Which brings us back to the military situation. It took a very long time to bring an ocean-going fleet around Sitting Bull's southern holdings and to match the number of Dutch soldiers. The invasion of Holland is about to commence. The show-down of the two greatest powers.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

...

Then make CoL for courthouses and currency (not so much for the markets or even extra trade routes--although it is handy --but for the ablity to build wealth as needed)

...

Kaytie

I want to emphasize this, because in light of a recent game of mine, I came to conclude that it is very important. Currency is THE tech of the early game for anyone who wishes to expand/conquer very fast and still have good tech rate for CoL (for courthouses) and other techs.

In a recent monarch attempt game I experienced, for the first time in any of my games, the best demonstration of the power of the ability of building wealth and of the weakness incurred by not having such an ability. After maths, having a lot of jungle around, I decided to tech to IW. I hadn't teched currency at that point. Then, as my cities were running out of projects, with myself having more than enough workers and definitely more warriors than I needed (I had just eliminated an enemy), I found myself dismissing units as they were trained in cities, just to keep maintenance low.

IW took 20+ turns and Currency took 50ish turns. (this is on marathon speed; it would have meant less turns in normal speed, but still a lot more than decent) I had to stay with tech rate at 10% or 20%, which was just incredibly weak. As soon as I had currency, I immediately started building wealth in all of my cities, and CoL came in 15ish turns later, thanks to being able to keep the tech slider up. I think I could have gained a lot more simply by teching currency before IW.