Nobles' Club XLIX: Churchill of England

[drlake]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I'm doing OK on EPs (100+ per turn as of 1800) but I'm not spreading them around. I'm focusing them on my neighbors, to get enough to be useful for inciting city revolt. I figure if I can do that and grab a couple of cities in my first strike that'll help alot.

As for "strong enough", I'd prefer to get attacked than do the attacking but since none of my neighbors are cooperating and I'm losing the window for redcoats I figure I should go for it.

 

[Killroyan]

@Drlake

Spoiler :

Is there any reason why you do not have a lighthouse in London yet? It is far from it happy cap so it could grow a lot more. Also make the chain irrigation work to your rice. That is another 2 food for your capital, netting you in 4F. That is a huge boost to your best city.

 

[drlake]

@Killroyan

Spoiler :

Yes, I didn't think the cost-benefit analysis supported the hammer investment of a Lighthouse for a mere 2 food. I can probably be convinced otherwise, though.

On the irrigation issue, I noticed that and have already fixed it.

 

[dalamb]

Sigh. War is not going well at all.

Spoiler :

Failing to take all the Greek territory means constant cultural pressure from the remaining Greek cities, and thus revolts in all three of the cities I took. I'm going to have to rethink how to go about this conquest -- it's not as easy as I thought it would be. I may need to rely on having 10 soldiers in each city to make revolt impossible.

Several cities can grind out pikemen in 3 turns; maybe that's what I should do. York, my HE/West Point city needs to keep producing combat troops instead of garrisons.

I'm also rethinking going to war against Greece at all. Here's the power situation just before I attacked him:

Cathy is Giggles' vassal; Monty and Mansa are vassals of Justinian, so everybody but Rags and Pericles are hard targets.

I've attached the save file if anyone wants to peek at it; unfortunately it has Bug 3.6 so I imagine most people can't load it (I now know about using CustomAssets, but I didn't when I started this game).

 

[drlake]

dalamb, if you vassal him, you'll remove the cultural pressure from him. The other alternative is complete destruction of the AI civ, since no civ = no culture!

 

[dalamb]

I get my BFC back, but the cities I took before vassalling him revolted -- happened with several of them! (I suppose if we're discussing generalities there's no need to spoiler). I added a bit more data to my message, plus a likely-useless save (has BUG 3.6).

 

[millahnna]

I have tried this no less than four times now and while I have learned a lot I don't think I will ever finish. My first try through it was pretty amusing though. I had my housemate cracking up as I cussed out the screen (was NOT please with the AIs I was running into).

 

[drlake]

I have tried this no less than four times now and while I have learned a lot I don't think I will ever finish. My first try through it was pretty amusing though. I had my housemate cracking up as I cussed out the screen (was NOT please with the AIs I was running into).

Heh, I feel your pain. I may never finish this one, given the difficult situation that's developed. I need to get better at Renaissance and later warring, to finish games faster. I played for a couple of hours yesterday, to get from 1724 to 1800!

 

[Killroyan]

@Drlake: About the lighthouse. Food is always good. A lighthouse is build in 3 turns in London and it will make you grow your city since it is stagnant now. Larger cities means more production/coins/food so it is definitely worth it. Payback time of the lighthouse is about 20 turns or so max. Not building a lighthouse in a coastal city, especially with sea food is a bit off if you ask me, especially when it is stagnant. With the irrigated rice and the irrigated grassland you will net in 4 more food per turn. That is huge. This also means that after growing you can work another lumbermill and then even get another specialist.

 

[drlake]

Monarch/Epic to 1850AD:

Spoiler :

Just a brief update. I built up my army in Babylon and declared on Justinian. Recon zeppelins had revealed his SoD sitting in Akkad, and virtually no siege (1 cat, 1 cannon ffs!). Nippur was vulnerable to direct attack, so I'd put several Redcoats with CG3 and a MG in there for defense. As expected, he moved his SoD next to Nippur and attacked with airships and some of his faster troops, but failed to kill any defenders.

Once his SoD was out in the open, I had no problem destroying it. I softened it up using FS3 Cannons (they had higher survival rates than Barrage, so I went with them) and then killed every unit in it with some of my Infantry, Cavalry, and misc other troops (Justinian also is using Infantry and Cavalry).

Once his SoD was gone, he basically turtled in his cities. I took Akkad, Adrianopolis, and Antioch so far, and will at least take Thessalonica and Constantinople before I cap him (I'm not sure I want to both taking every city in this game). After I took Akkad, Pericles broke his PV relationship so I made peace with him. He's next...

I did build the Lighthouse, about 1801. Late, I know, but better than never...

 

[Killroyan]

No worries Looks like you are in good shape.

 

[jwez11007]

@jwez: If you post a save I'm willing to take a look at the bonus hammer problem. As to the rest we'd need to know more about the history of your game.

I figured out the bonus hammer problem...you don't get them when you defy resolutions. Its really frustrating when you invest the hammers into those religious buildings and end up not getting any returns. With this in mind I might reload from near the start of my war against hammy and attempt to eradicate him with the hammers I unknowlingly threw away on religious buildlings.

The problem with the resolutions is that Justinian is AP resident and is trying to stop wars and return cities to my neighboring fellow Jews. Even though I have the largest chunk of votes, I'm unable to get elected or stop the resolutions (without defying) because every other nation always votes against me. This is the first time I've ever run into this problem so we'll see if I can salvage this, I'ld be really disappointed if I lost this one because otherwise its been one of the most fun NC games I've played.

 

[dalamb]

Playing with the AP in the game requires diplomacy. The benefits (+2 or +4 for a while) have to be weighted against the need to keep at least some co-religionists happy with you. I play at low enough levels (Noble, now starting Prince) that I can often afford to build it myself.

 

[dalamb]

BC 4000-2200
BC 3100-305 (reload)
BC 305 BC - AD 100
AD 100-880
AD 880-1190
AD 1190-1570

I backed up and attacked differently:

Spoiler :

Summary: I've vassalled Mansa, Justinian, and Ragnar, and now need to decide whether to go for the Giggles/Cathy alliance (hardest target), Monty (soft target), or Pericles (will likely capitulate to the Alliance before I conquer all I want to conquer), and get me back to where I keep getting cities revolting).

History:

• I backed up to 1480 AD before I attacked Greece last time, and waffled about who to attack next. Justinian was the most powerful opponent, but Giggles was allied with Cathy and so potentially just as powerful. I began building a bigger army, needed in either case.
• 1500 AD: As might have been expected:
  
  
• 1580 AD: I select Justinian and split my forces into the Western and Eastern fronts. West is mean to take cultural pressure off my relatively weak western cities, and East is meant to start taking the two smaller cities blocking me from Constantinople.
• 1600 AD: Declare on Justinian. The war goes reasonably well but I lose more troops than I ever do on Noble.
• 1690 AD, after I take 4 cities and Constantinople:
  
  
  
  
  I also get a helpful event; science is a little slow because of having to run the slider at 40%.
  
  
  
  
  
• 1700 AD: A couple of people are running Emancipation, so I decide to trade around Steam Power to get a few techs:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  And shortly thereafter:
  
  
  
  
  
• 1722 AD: Attack Ragnar, who has captured Kumbi Saleh. Just after I take Uppsala in 1746 AD:
  
  

So, what's the best order for the remaining conquests?

Spoiler current status and discussion :

I've built up some protection in Nottingham, which is my nearest city to Gilgamesh. It's based on harming stacks, with Bombard II cannon, some cavalry to flank for siege engines, and most of my airships. So shortly I should be safe enough from Giggles to send my 2 SoDs against the next targets. Here's the various status info:

Maybe I'll switch to Augustus for a bit.

Edit: Finished with a domination victory in AD 1822, first win at Prince.

Spoiler :

Conquest order: Gilgamesh (1756-1780), Pericles (1806-1820). Each time Cathy started as their vassal, but broke away when I conquered a few cities. Immediately after I beat Pericles, Cathy caputulated. The next turn with Cathy as a vassal, Eridu (which had been cramped by her cultural borders) expanded enough to get domination. I never got to conquer Mexico but I was getting really, really tired of the war.

By the end I had upgraded many CR-II and -III cannons to artillery, and some of the redcoats became infantry.

Conquest/domination is tougher for me than other forms of victory, and this first Prince game seemed quite a bit harder for me than Noble.

 

[4077 Mash]

OK, I'm working my way backwards through the NC games, now. This one is a better example of my skills (and lack thereof) than 50 was.
Noble/Epic

Spoiler :

My first attempt was a tragic failure. After minor scouting, I saw that Babylon was closest to me, which means chariot rushing is out. But I saw that I have elephants and marble, and they are next to the river, so I don't even need to roads to connect them. Thus, I decide that I am going to get the Oracle and use that for Construction. I go agr>masonary>hunt.>AH>myst.>writing>poly>preist>math. Worker>workboat>warrior>warrior>settler>worker>Oracle.
I get the Oracle, get construction, and start producing catapults while researching horseback riding. I think start producing elephants as well.
I easily take Babylon's two cities, but now I am left with a problem. I have only four cities total, and I am lacking in culture. Between Khmer and the Sumerians being creative around me, and Justinian having founded a religion, my newly captured cities cannot even use their full BFC by the time I get some building producing culture in them.
I finally decide to go after Khmer (I probably should have done this immediately, but did not), but with just elephants and catapults, I lose big time to spearmen. I finally decide to start over.

Spoiler :

Obviously, some of this is easier because I knew what was coming, but I hadn't really gotten that much of the map open
OK, I am still going for the Oracle for Construction, but more slowly this time. Most importantly, I get my first settler out quicker this time and get it settled next to the stone where I go immediately for stonehenge.
This time my research path is Agr.>Masonry>Hunt>AH>BW>myst>wheel>poly>writing>preist>math
My build order for the first city is
worker>warrior>warrior>settler (partially chopped)>worker>warrior>settler>workboat>Oracle (start)>Library> Oracle (finish)
My second city does get SH (and has copper in the BFC). My third city is in between the two on the hill on the coast. I've met everbody by now, and I am able to first trade Catherine for Alphabet, and then backfill the rest of techs from everyone else.
I use Oracle for Construction and start to build catapults while researching Horseback Riding.
After HR, I go Currency>CoL>Civil Service.
In 275BC, I declare on Hammurabi, and capture his first two cities (this time he has more), before making a peace treaty to regroup.
I also have some bad luck in 25 BC. London has a 75% chance for a GS, but I get a GP instead. I am not likely to get a founding city anytime soon, so I settle it in London. It happens again in 295 AD.
Here is a screenshot of 10AD:

Spoiler :

I attack Hammurabi again in 130AD, just as I finish CS, switch to bureacracy, and start on Machinery. In 235, I finish off the Babylonians. In 295, I discover Machinery, and start to build Macemen.
I know in the meantime I've been trading techs, and also giving some away to maintain peace. I have acquired buhdism from Justian, and I switch. Either he spreads it, or it spreads to all my cities.
I research paper, and then start on Education.
In 535, I take my catapults, elephants and macemen and attack the Khmer. I finish education in 820, and start on gunpowder as well as building/whipping libraries and universities. I finish off the Khmer in 940AD. I have captured both the Great Wall and the Pyramids, so that was helpful. I am headed towards rifling now, so I go for printing press. Here is 1000AD:

Spoiler :

In 1130, I finish all my Universities and start on Oxford in London. I also switch to Rep,Caste, and Org Religion.
I am able to trade for Phil.,Guilds and Engineering and after PP, I start on Banking, then Liberalism. I finish Liberalism first, and get replacable parts, and start on rifling.
I finish rifling in 1325 and switch to theocracy/vassalage/police start and start producing Redcoats (thanks for hint about Drill IV Redcoats, btw). I'm going for Economics for the free GM, although now that I write that, I should have made a push towards steel instead.

In 1380, I take the Redcoats, with some Musketmen and Catapults and attack Sumeria. Now is when it all goes wrong. First of all, the Catapults were not very helpful. 7 of them and I bombarded the capital city, and yet by the next turn it was as if nothing had happened. Second, in 1390, the Vickings declare war on me, and enters my territory with a pretty big stack. I am able to hold him off, but much of my force which I had hoped to send towards Sumeria ends up being diverted to defeat Ragnar's stack. I finally suicide all the catapults and use the Redcoat/Musketmen to raze Uruk in 1415, and then make peace (I think I get whatever gold Gilgamesh has left). I am able to then finish off Ragnar's stack.

I go back to producing Redcoats, although this time I also start on some Trebs to come with me. I manage to get Mansa to declare on Ragnar, and then shortly after Ragnar agrees to peace with me. Poor Mansa then gets attacked by Catherine. He asks to be my Vassal, but I have no interest in war with Catherine, so I decline, and a few turns later Catherine asks me to declare on Mansa, which I do to keep her happy. It's all for nothing on my part, though, because as I go back after Sumeria, Gilgamesh vassals to Catherine, and we end up at war anyway. It's not as bad as I thought it would be, though, and I am able to conquer or raze most of Sumeria (he's left with a single city on the other side of the continent). It takes too long for some cities to get pacified, though, and I end up giving one of the captured cities to Pericles. I sign a peace treaty with Russians/Malis/Sumarians in 1560AD.

I now switched to Rep/Bureau/Free Religion and though I would focus on my science. Here are some shots, and I will also attached my current saved game (BUG 4.3).

Thoughts/Questions:

Spoiler :

1. With so many other civs, diplomacy is hard for me. I get demands and requests all the time, and its hard to remember who I want to keep happy and who will be made unhappy. Especially since I cannot check out the diplomatic situation when a demand or request is being made. At some point, I Mansa asked me to declare on Ragnar, and I did to make him happy. There was almost no reason for me to do that, and it probably led to Ragnar attacking me later. Other than developing a better memory, is there something that someone can suggest to help with this?

2. Of course, multiple DoWs did not help, either. I have large negative modifiers because of that. Even civs with different religions seem to be on good enough terms that they get upset when I declare. Any suggestions for helping reduce that?

3. I am in a winning position (I am pretty sure), but where do I go from here? Having switched out of his state religion, I lost Friendly status with Justinian, and I could send cannons/redcoats his way, although it could just lead him to vassalling to Catherine. I have the tech lead, and could probably go towards tanks/artillery for a domination win, or I could try for a spaceship. Which of these three would anyone suggest?

 

[drlake]

@4077

First, you can check the status of your diplomacy before responding. F4 to bring up the foreign adviser works.

Second, you can generally refuse declarations of war and even demands to break trade with relatively small penalties. It isn't ideal, but rarely do I get a DoW for doing either.

 

[4077 Mash]

Each time is a small penalty, but I was getting asked over and over again. The F4 thing is good to know. I think that was a bigger problem for me overall was not remembering who I was maintaining good relations with, and who I should just ignore.

Thanks.

 

[drlake]

@4077

Spoiler :

You need to keep an eye on whether your target cities have walls if you are going to rely on Cats and Trebs for siege warfare. That's what caused you problems when you were trying to take Uruk. You also need a LOT more siege than that. 7 Cats is a siege stack for early medieval war. You probably should have had 20+ siege if you didn't have Cannons at that stage in the game, and they should have all been Trebs. More siege is key for faster and more successful wars.

In general, refusing to join wars and break trade is small hits and if it is cumulative it doesn't add up very much. Breaking trade and declaring war is a much bigger diplomacy hit. That said, I'm usually happy to declare/break trade against a distant AI at the request of a neighbor, especially a strong one.

Justinian should be your next target. Build up a big stack of Redcoats/Cavalry and Cannons (about 50/50) and go for it. Put a few extra troops on your border with Cathy if you feel the need, but given the religious difference and distance I wouldn't be all that worried about him vassaling himself to her. If he does, just keep taking his cities. Again, bigger armies to start the war = faster wars with less war weariness and lower casualties.

You are definitely in a winnable position, and there is no reason to wait until Tanks to finish the game if you don't want.

 

[4077 Mash]

OK, I finished the game off.

Spoiler :

It turned out that I really didn't need to worry about Catherine, because she ended up at war with Justinian, Rangar, and Monty. I guess her diplomacy skills were even worse than mine. And actually, I voted for her over Rangar as the leader of the AP and provided a few techs, and ended up with good enough relations that she voted for me when Secretary General UN voting took place.
I did build back up an army of Redcoats and Cannons and took out Justinian. (I am kind of worried that the game inspires me to enjoy genocide a bit too much).
I probably could and should have continued right on with Periceles, but at that point I was kind of ready to move on, so I went full on science towards spaceship. I won the space race in 1957.

I did suffer from not enough culture in my border cities with Periclese. I kind of expected it in the cities I captured from Justinian, but it even happened in York, which was my second city, and had 11K+ culture points. I took me awhile to realize that it was going to start shrinking, not because of health, but because it had lost a number of tiles in its BFC due to culture issues. Other than that, the only issue was that one spy managed to sabatoge a spaceship part. Periclese built the UN, but I was elected SG, although without any chance of a DV.

So clearly I need to learn to balance culture in a spaceship race when I have close neighbors. I also need to re-read TMIT's guide to quick play. I get a little distracted in the later years when there is so much to focus on, which is why I just kinda switched to spaceship even though domination was within my grasp.

I will be trying a prince level game next.