Non-Warmongers: How do you control AI City spam?

[Theodeth]

For reference, I'm referring to 6 and 7 difficulty levels.

I usually don't have an issue with the AI city spam when I'm going domination because I just capture / raze them all. I've been trying to play a non-domination oriented game and every single time the AI's spam cities all around me. I'm talking consistently plopping down cities 4 tiles away from my own. If I buy tiles, they just complain and then declare war on me. If I take the cities, everyone hates me and the rest of the game is a wash for a non-domination strat.

I'm curious how many cities people can normally plop down before they're completely surrounded by AI's. Also, how many tiles apart do you plan your cities? I try and do 6 tiles away but this leaves initial gaps for AI's to spam cities in.

Also, I feel like if I'm going non-domination, I have to basically rush pottery and settlers immediately, which leads to early game unhappiness issues due to many lux's being deeper into the research pool (having to clear jungles, fishing boats, quarries, etc.)

This is more of just a confusing rant due to the last 4 attempts at a non-domination game ending up an AI city spam galore. I'm going back to the celts until I can figure this out.

Usual settings are communitas / continents / pangea maps, standard size.

 

[RoAdd]

I usually spam settlers early game till I get a zone secured and fill any remaining space, even if it is not beneficial at that moment, just so the AI doesn't. Yeah i usually have unhappiness but nothing exceptional or hard to control. After that i just defend and try to play nice if I don't wanna be a warmonger. Other times I just forget I wanted to win diplomatically and take half the continent as mine...

 

[Stalker0]

Also, I feel like if I'm going non-domination, I have to basically rush pottery and settlers immediately, which leads to early game unhappiness issues

The early game unhappiness is fine. You can turn that around once you switch from expansion to infrastructure.

Ultimately this is the way to go. Claim your land early and then build it up. Now, 100% peace may simply not be possible, but to me there is a big difference between snagging a few cities in the game and "going war-monger".

I would also say with the latest version always puppet over razing for this style. With puppets you will hold the spot against resettlement and it has 0 cost to you.

 

[void_genesis]

Is it viable to declare war against the offender, post some units in the region you wish to settle later, then settle yourself when you can? This way you only have a war declaration but don't get warmonger penalties for taking their cities.

 

[Workerspam]

I'll spam settlers, settle cities to deny pre-Open Borders passage to the AI if I can, post military units to declare war if the AI sends settlers to an area I want for myself, and live with some unhappiness as I expand, trusting that I can right the ship down the line. I can often settle 8 cities and save a parcel of land to fill with pioneers once I unlock banking but that's very much map dependent. Occasionally I'll get crowded in by my neighbors but even then I should squeeze out 6 or so reasonable cities.

This is on Emperor, Standard sized Planet Simulator maps. I've had a number of games where I settle more cities than the AI.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Depends on if I'm playing Tradition or Progress. If Tradition, then I'm not so concerned about how many cities I'll be able to pump out. If I'm playing Progress, I try to start pumping settlers out asap, mixed with horsemen (having beelined for the tech after researching pottery) for protection. If necessary, I use horsemen to DoW/harass AI's looking to settle too close to me.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Plus you always have the option of a "freebie" city in the form of a city state. You can declare war on one city state without it affecting your relations with other city states.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

This is just a feeling, but the AI settle logic looks more and more idiotic.
I dunno if Gazebo has done something with it, but in the last time, I see much more extreme aggressiv but also stupid settling by AI.

As you can see, marocco placed a city between my cities and a city state. The northern gold and wheat tiles are bought by me, to deny him those fields. But still, he placed a city complety irrational into a small spot with only little space to expand.


Ive played a game with my mate on a ring map. As you can see, brazil placed 2 cities at his "continent" and then settled miles away on my continent.... and send one more settler to create a city even further away of his capitol and already closer to my capitol, than to his own. I know, aggressiv settling is common strategy, but this is simply stupid aggressiv.


My mate and me seen a lot more crazy, stupid aggressiv settling, leading to dislike us cause THEY were settling extreme close. Sometimes the last spot the cities around are making available.

I think a fast war with razing, buying the tiles and then peace out is the best option. But the VERY best option would be, to stop this crazy settler spam.

 

[Theodeth]

This is just a feeling, but the AI settle logic looks more and more idiotic.
I dunno if Gazebo has done something with it, but in the last time, I see much more extreme aggressiv but also stupid settling by AI.

As you can see, marocco placed a city between my cities and a city state. The northern gold and wheat tiles are bought by me, to deny him those fields. But still, he placed a city complety irrational into a small spot with only little space to expand.


Ive played a game with my mate on a ring map. As you can see, brazil placed 2 cities at his "continent" and then settled miles away on my continent.... and send one more settler to create a city even further away of his capitol and already closer to my capitol, than to his own. I know, aggressiv settling is common strategy, but this is simply stupid aggressiv.


My mate and me seen a lot more crazy, stupid aggressiv settling, leading to dislike us cause THEY were settling extreme close. Sometimes the last spot the cities around are making available.

I think a fast war with razing, buying the tiles and then peace out is the best option. But the VERY best option would be, to stop this crazy settler spam.

That's pretty hilarious. I've had this happen in the last few games as well. A settler will sneak past all my cities and come plop it down 4 tiles from my capital, then Moderator Action: <SNIP> at me for territory disputes.

Is it viable to declare war against the offender, post some units in the region you wish to settle later, then settle yourself when you can? This way you only have a war declaration but don't get warmonger penalties for taking their cities.

I like this idea. Especially with the horseman someone mentioned. Just kill the settler/escort and no city-taking penalty.

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[tu_79]

Also, I feel like if I'm going non-domination, I have to basically rush pottery and settlers immediately

Nope.
You are not going to be able to produce any settler before your second tech, so you don't really need to rush it. You can leave it for the second tech, or even the third. The fourth if you feel like you have enough room for your cities. You may want to rush a military unit, though. Archers are the fastest, but they are weak against mounted units. You rush archers when you want to rush markets or other upper building, cause they are on the way. Spearsmen can be beelined quite soon too, and are a well round unit. Horsemen is the best early unit, but it requires three techs and improving horse resources, if you have them. Horse charriot is only useful in some maps.

When going Tradition, the most fitted policy for such a build, I settle my secondary cities very close to capital, at least one of them, because capital ends up working specialists mostly, and very few tiles. I try to have one of my cities as coastal, so I can send trade routes to other continents (I usually play on continents). The other ones, it depends, but if I can, I try to have all my coastal cities in the same sea.

The key to avoid early aggressions is having yourself a big army. Tradition usually lacks gold and production, so either markets or stone works can save your life. You need to rush military wonders with extra unit supply. But if you are attacked, worry not, as defense is usually easier, you can use your city walls as extra support and you'll produce a few great generals that can increase your supply when expended for citadels.

Four cities means that you'll rarely have your population near the unhappiness limits. You can grow your cities much faster, but you need to micromanage your workers, or they'll be always working on specialists and your population will fall behind. Four cities is also the bare minimum recommended to acquire a monopoly in standard maps.

Advanced players also do proactive diplomacy, like letting another religion into your own cities for a relationship bonus, having common foes, having trading partners, and even giving gifts to actively support one civ to fight against another. Nothing of the above requires you to expand your territory.

 

[Rafs]

As others have said, if you don't want to warmonger then your only choice is locking places down (not always feasable depending on terrain and the gold you have), but you will have to suck up a fair amount of unhapiness at the start, but when you start building you'll catch up, it's not that bad.
I think a proactive war to kill settlers or intimidate the AI at their doors if you see they want to settle near you is your best bet, the AI will end up letting go of the war grudge, and there is no way to avoid tensions between neighbors in the long run because the AI or you will end up filling those gaps, so your it's better you get to keep the good spots.
Try the shoshone if you want some "peaceful" settling, very easy to lock down tiles due to the extra grab, powerful early game, and godly defense with the UA and UI+ early horses.