(6-28) Add Ivory To Additional Tiles and Change Distribution

[dostillevi]

Proposal:
-Ivory is allowed to spawn on featureless plains, jungle plains, jungle grassland, or featureless grassland (if other types aren't available)
-Ivory will continue to flatten any tiles it spawns on, but will not remove jungle.
-Ivory is spread out across the map similarly to marble, with similar frequency.

Reasoning:
Gameplay:
-Ivory is rarely seen when playing Communitu_79a, the officially supported map. This is believed to be due to it's restrictive spawn requirements.
-Ivory is unique among luxury resources in that the ability to create a unit depends on access to it. Therefore, it makes more sense to treat Ivory like marble (a luxury resource that provides a localized benefit) and have it spread out across the map rather than clustered. This has the effect of increasing the number of civs with access to War Elephants.

Realism:
-Indian elephants are not well represented by Ivory appearing only in plains.

Intended outcome:
-Ivory appears in more types of terrain and is more commonly found on maps
-Ivory is spread out across the map like marble rather than grouped like other Luxury resources

Considerations:
-Ivory is a camp luxury, which are somewhat less common.
-Ivory currently forces the terrain it spawns on to become plains. This may no longer be desired, but I'm not clear on the code as to whether this should be part of the proposal.
-Some improvements may not look good if they are built on Jungle tiles, particularly those from civ mods (Scotland). Needs testing.
-Extra production/gold on jungle tiles will help remedy the perceived lack of production for Jungle heavy cities, but may unbalance/overpower jungle starts.
-(underlying issues) The AI may not understand that Ivory is a requirement for the War Elephant, and may not properly prioritize War Elephant production. The AI may trade away it's only Ivory resource even if it is building or plans to build War Elephants. Do War Elephants lose the ability to heal if the source of Ivory is lost (possible unique behavior vs units that require strategics)?
-War Elephants may not be well balanced or competitive in their current design and requirements. This is a separate issue that can be better reviewed and addressed after Ivory is more prevalent.
-Barbarians can now spawn War Elephants. Making Ivory more prevalent may lead to stronger barbarians in general.

Current Status (note modded civ/4UC UIs):

Edited to clarify spawn effects on hills and jungle.


Mapscript Changes

 

[axatin]

You need to specify a rationale for your proposal. Also, it needs to be more specific. Do you want Ivory to become more common?

 

[dostillevi]

I removed a lot of context at Timid's suggestion. Adding it back in.

 

[rkkn]

-(underlying issues) The AI may not understand that Ivory is a requirement for the War Elephant, and may not properly prioritize War Elephant production. The AI may trade away it's only Ivory resource even if it is building or plans to build War Elephants. Do War Elephants lose the ability to heal if the source of Ivory is lost (possible unique behavior vs units that require strategics)?

I don't know for sure, but I think the AI gives a high value to ivory. Last game I played with an ivory start, every AI wanted to pay good money for my ivory. I've never seen that happen for other luxuries, so I doubt they just all coincidentally needed ivory for WLTKD.

 

[axatin]

I don't know for sure, but I think the AI gives a high value to ivory. Last game I played with an ivory start, every AI wanted to pay good money for my ivory. I've never seen that happen for other luxuries, so I doubt they just all coincidentally needed ivory for WLTKD.

That must have been a coincidence, the AI doesn't give any additional value to ivory in general, they don't consider that it's needed for war elephants.

 

[Enginseer]

I would like to see more ivory spawned since a Barbarian War Elephant can mean a nearby ivory is there to settle... but anyway.

 

[dostillevi]

Editing to note that since Barbs can now spawn war elephants, this would happen far more frequently with Ivory being more available.

 

[azum4roll]

-Ivory is allowed to spawn on featureless plains, jungle plains, jungle grassland, or featureless grassland (if other types aren't available)
-Ivory is spread out across the map similarly to marble, with similar frequency.

The second point would get my vote without the first.

By adding Ivory to the special list, it'll already appear in every single generated map like Marble. Adding them to other tiles don't make them more available. Flat featureless plains are common enough if we consider the whole map rather than a single region.

 

[rkkn]

By adding Ivory to the special list, it'll already appear in every single generated map like Marble

this is a good point!

but also I think allowing them to show up near jungle starts is good. for two reasons: jungle starts are still painful and a production resource makes them less painful, and elephants in jungle is realistic

 

[azum4roll]

this is a good point!

but also I think allowing them to show up near jungle starts is good. for two reasons: jungle starts are still painful and a production resource makes them less painful, and elephants in jungle is realistic

Not with the current African Elephant model. And it'll make them one of the best tiles after Zoo. Ivory yields are balanced with being on flat featureless plains in mind.

 

[rkkn]

And it'll make them one of the best tiles after Zoo

not if it turns it into flat featureless!
I think ivory should be able to spawn in jungle but it turns the jungle into flat featureless grassland/plains
that should be fine, yes?

 

[azum4roll]

not if it turns it into flat featureless!
I think ivory should be able to spawn in jungle but it turns the jungle into flat featureless grassland/plains
that should be fine, yes?

Currently it's already placed on flat forest/jungle plains, with the trees removed. Also featureless plains hills, with the hills flattened. No need to add this to the proposal.

 

[dostillevi]

I'm not opposed to a spread resource on a jungle tile with no special bonus after the classical era becoming one of or even the best tile in the game once zoos are around. That's not a lot of tiles for any one civ to be exploiting, and it's not strong enough to even begin to matter to progression by the time we have zoos, even if it is a desirable tile.

As per the jungle conversation overall, I will make it more explicitly clear that a spawn on jungle would leave the jungle present but still flatten the tile. In Communitu_79a, jungle almost exclusively spawns on grassland (at least I've never seen it on plains), so allowing elephants on jungle grassland seems necessary. I'm open to removing the featureless grassland part, but I don't think that hurts anything to have more possible locations for ivory, and it wouldn't seem anti-thematic to me at least.

Edit: I think the statement "If other types aren't available" should be read such that elephants would only spawn on featureless grassland if there are no valid featureless plains, jungle plains, or jungle grassland, which should be quite rare. Hopefully that's reasonable and in line with existing resource spawn rules. I don't really want Ivory to be any more of a special snowflake than it already is.

 

[dostillevi]

Not with the current African Elephant model.

I would love to have appropriate models for elephants (and maybe eventually mammoths!), but I don't want that to hold up adding ivory to jungles given that modeling work is challenging and there are few who can do it. If someone is willing to sponsor a model update for an Asian elephant I am 100% behind it.

 

[rkkn]

Currently it's already placed on flat forest/jungle plains, with the trees removed. Also featureless plains hills, with the hills flattened. No need to add this to the proposal.

grassland jungle is the one I want to add them to

 

[ma_kuh]

@dostillevi there was a little bit of discussion on jungles and their terrain rules as part of this proposal for Jungle deer, you might be interested in it.

[Vote] - (2-10) Proposal: Jungle Deer

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[dostillevi]

Seems to play to the same general consensus that Jungle starts are hammer poor, although this proposal isn't specifically intended to fix jungle starts.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Can we just add a special case like for a Marble someone mentioned earlier? Is it possible without change of spawning logic?
If so I'm on. If not, I would vote for (6-36a) and leave it as it is now.

 

[Tekamthi]

Communitu_79a, the officially supported map

I only occasionally use this map personally -- why not just adjust the map script rather than change how it works across the board? I tend to see regular appearances by ivory resource on other map scripts, its not as abundant as some others but it feels appropriately rare. I've never noticed ivory's presence or absence as having much effect on the big picture of a game of VP, really. We'd be fixing something that ain't broken here if you ask me.

 

[azum4roll]

grassland jungle is the one I want to add them to

Which doesn't exist in most maps.