Not enough benefits to having good relations with the AI

[VainoValkea]

Yeah, the diplomacy hits from building wonders they covet or snatching City-States are low. In the case of City-States, especially, since that should warrant a lot of retribution. Diplomacy is mostly about three things: whether you're a warmonger or not, whether you've broken promises or not and whether you're the same ideology as them or not. Everything else is minor and of little importance.

 

[Rohili]

You just have to manage the diplomacy right.

What does that entail?

 

[tiger12348]

You cant befriend with everybody, so pick your side if you want to play a diplo game ( Like not everybody hates you)

Look carefully in the world politics chart, in order to keep a good relationship with the AI, you must not:
Declare friendship with the AI's enemy.
Denounce the AI's Friend.
Get denounced by the AI's Friend.


Declare war with a reason, for example Japan is running around killing city states, so there is a good chance everyone else will be denouncing him, and this is your opportunity to declare war on him without being considered as a warmonger.
It is possible to form a long lasting relationship if you and your AI buddy happen to believe in the same ideology later in the game.

 

[VainoValkea]

I guess it means: denouncing the evil leaders and being friends with the good ones. Going to the right wars and avoiding the wrong ones. Abandoning the idea that you have to be friends with everyone and instead sticking with your own faction by participating in their wars.

 

[tiger12348]

One more thing, never ever break promises. Dont make the promises which you are not willing to fulfill.

They ask you not to expand, just say I will settle whereever I want, and be a man.

 

[Roxlimn]

Rohili:

As mentioned, don't make promises you don't intend to keep, since that needlessly tanks your diplomacy for 0 reason. If you're going to war with the guy, just say so. If intend to keep settling, just say so. There is 0 benefit to lying in Civ V.

AIs that are currently at war with the same AI will not assign your warmonger hate; so as long as you engineer it right, you can make everyone war with your target, then conquer him, and everything will be hunky-dory. In addition, liberating city states and ally civ cities will negate warmonger penalties, so you can continue warring with everyone pretty much patting your back while you do it.

Building wonders and allying city states are relatively minor penalties. Stacking a few gift bonuses on top of them will go a long way towards getting the AI to do what you want.

Other people have already laid out some of the benefit of being DoF with Civs. There are more, but as I said, you can just play the game and discover them yourself. That's part of the point of playing, and I am not a manual.

 

[VainoValkea]

Yeah, the diplomacy penalty for breaking a promise never goes away as far as I know. And worse than that, the AI seems to always know what a horrible liar you've been, even if you hadn't even met when you lied to someone else.

In practice, this matters the most with the troop positioning promise. If the AI requests you to move your troops, you have to either agree or be considered an attacker in a war. The latter option is far more serious than just refusing to promise anything - it's a war, not just a minor insult to their wishes. However, if you agree to move your troops and declare war before the promise is fulfilled, or just keep the troops where they are, you'll be considered a treacherous villain.

 

[Zaldrizes]

Alright. I can certainly attest to the importance of keeping promises. I generally play fairly and honestly with my "friends" in the game. I also make sure that, if I'm in a pricky mood, I go to war with the other prick of the world. I suppose I don't have an issue there (and I rarely play the prick, anyhow). The only thing that still irks me is the trading. I don't expect to get some cotton and gold out of America for my salt. I just want cotton for salt. And if we're friends, and they have the money, why ask for extra gold from me instead of a straight-up RA for RA deal.

BUT, perhaps I've been looking at things too simply. I've only thus far played at Prince difficulty. I am thus afforded the luxury of an all-around game that allows me to be ahead in all (or most) areas. Perhaps they don't like the thought of giving luxuries to the already happiest empire in the world celebrating its Golden Age once again. So they charge me more. Hell, I'd charge me more. Likewise, if I'm the tech leader, maybe that explains their reticence to give me a "fair" RA deal. "Fair" can be quite relative in such terms. Is diplo actually that abstract though? If so, then I stand impressed and thus can stop shaking my fist at Gustavus every time he asks for everything but a city in exchange for some fur.

 

[VainoValkea]

Alright. I can certainly attest to the importance of keeping promises. I generally play fairly and honestly with my "friends" in the game. I also make sure that, if I'm in a pricky mood, I go to war with the other prick of the world. I suppose I don't have an issue there (and I rarely play the prick, anyhow). The only thing that still irks me is the trading. I don't expect to get some cotton and gold out of America for my salt. I just want cotton for salt. And if we're friends, and they have the money, why ask for extra gold from me instead of a straight-up RA for RA deal.

Civ is still a competitive game, and they know enough game theory to realize that 1-for-1 trades aren't always fair (for them).

The AI also seems to realize when one goes unhappy and raises their luxury prices accordingly... clever devils!

 

[Rohili]

Rohili:

As mentioned, don't make promises you don't intend to keep, since that needlessly tanks your diplomacy for 0 reason. If you're going to war with the guy, just say so. If intend to keep settling, just say so. There is 0 benefit to lying in Civ V.

AIs that are currently at war with the same AI will not assign your warmonger hate; so as long as you engineer it right, you can make everyone war with your target, then conquer him, and everything will be hunky-dory. In addition, liberating city states and ally civ cities will negate warmonger penalties, so you can continue warring with everyone pretty much patting your back while you do it.

Building wonders and allying city states are relatively minor penalties. Stacking a few gift bonuses on top of them will go a long way towards getting the AI to do what you want.

Thanks. I have to disagree, though, that there is zero benefit to lying. Lying about your intentions to declare war is the single most important factor to winning wars for me. I don't necessarily have a numbers advantage; my wins stem from being tactical and overwhelming the target city in 1-3 turns, before the AI has a chance to react. To do that, I need time to position my forces properly before declaring war.

Lying also ensures that you get the first strike. I once made the mistake of admitting that I was going to war with the AI when they asked why my forces were amassed near their border. My forces were embarked and within one turn of disembarking on their territory, but because I had declared war while it was still their turn, their warships managed to slaughter half my forces before control returned to me.

Other people have already laid out some of the benefit of being DoF with Civs. There are more, but as I said, you can just play the game and discover them yourself. That's part of the point of playing, and I am not a manual.

I have played the game. The whole point is that I have played the game but found the benefits to be rather negligible, and laid out the reasons why. If you disagree, you are supposed to give reasons instead of just saying "you're wrong".

 

[Roxlimn]

Rohili:

Thanks. I have to disagree, though, that there is zero benefit to lying. Lying about your intentions to declare war is the single most important factor to winning wars for me. I don't necessarily have a numbers advantage; my wins stem from being tactical and overwhelming the target city in 1-3 turns, before the AI has a chance to react. To do that, I need time to position my forces properly before declaring war.

Lying also ensures that you get the first strike. I once made the mistake of admitting that I was going to war with the AI when they asked why my forces were amassed near their border. My forces were embarked and within one turn of disembarking on their territory, but because I had declared war while it was still their turn, their warships managed to slaughter half my forces before control returned to me.

These are both strategic errors. You can manage them by lying, but that's too high a price to pay for something you can manage more easily. For instance, if your troops are embarked, have warships of your own to protect them, or land them on a city state or friendly Civ. If you had friends, your enemies won't be able to do this, because they will ideally be engaging your ally forces, not your own.

You don't need numbers to win a war. You need friends. You can exhaust an enemy AI's entire military strength by asking your friends to war with it.

I have played the game. The whole point is that I have played the game but found the benefits to be rather negligible, and laid out the reasons why. If you disagree, you are supposed to give reasons instead of just saying "you're wrong".

Play it differently.

 

[tiger12348]

The combat AI is simply terrible,
I remember once, America, Austria and the Ottoman declared war on me at the same time (Didnt figure out the diplomacy game at that time, so everyone hated me) whose combined forces are supposed to wipe me out of the Earth three times. Yet, I was able to win the war while laughing at their horrible tactics.

The game is more enjoyble, if you have allies, to me this is the biggest benefit for having "friends" in the game, I have been aiming to achive victory while most of the civs still on friendly status. Hey, since the ingame diplomacy victory is largely economic victory, you can make your own rules.

 

[Rohili]

These are both strategic errors. You can manage them by lying, but that's too high a price to pay for something you can manage more easily. For instance, if your troops are embarked, have warships of your own to protect them, or land them on a city state or friendly Civ. If you had friends, your enemies won't be able to do this, because they will ideally be engaging your ally forces, not your own.

You don't need numbers to win a war. You need friends. You can exhaust an enemy AI's entire military strength by asking your friends to war with it.

Your proposals are very situational. In my case, there were no city-states or friendly civs bordering my target city; if there were, do you think I would go to the trouble and expense of a sea invasion? Also, I had convinced two other civs to declare war on my enemy, but they were on the other side of the world and all they did was to bombard some stray caravels. The only other civ on the same continent with my enemy had just concluded a war with him and would not go to war again.

I did have warships to protect my troops, but not all of them were in place yet. That's the whole point - the enemy confronted me before I could bring all my troops in place. In any case, I beg to differ that it is better to build more warships than to lie. If I could save on 5 frigates by lying, that's ~4000 gold (in terms of gold rushing costs) right there. How many luxuries must you sell to the AI before you can make that sum back?

 

[Zaldrizes]

The AI also seems to realize when one goes unhappy and raises their luxury prices accordingly... clever devils!

How dare they be clever! Damn... that explains why Hiawatha came begging for some free salt, but I regrettably refused since I needed to sell it at the time. Well, I shopped around and found some similar pricing among most, but I figured I'd give Hiawatha a shot. He paid me almost twice what the others were going to. He also had the largest city. Makes sense. I suppose even us humans have a way of detecting unhappiness in that aspect (besides who has the lowest approval rating, of course).

One more question, though: Do gifts really matter much? I've never seen a positive modifier from gifting stuff. But then, it's been awhile, and they weren't huge gifts. How big do they need to be, in general?

Edit: Apologies to the OP. I got involved in the thread and then started asking questions of my own. But I suppose it's a diplo benefit thread anyway, which is exactly where my concerns lie.

 

[VainoValkea]

"We've traded recently" includes spontaneous gifts.

 

[Zaldrizes]

"We've traded recently" includes spontaneous gifts.

Bingo. Thanks for being everywhere, Vaino.

 

[Roxlimn]

Rohili:

If the AI had strong warship presence, it's debatable in the first place why you didn't have more frigates - one of the most OP domination units in any game where warships are a factor. Each ship the AI presents you is XP waiting to be harvested. You use those to promote your frigates to Range Frigates to support your land invasion. That's not a cost, that's an opportunity.

Furthermore, the damage done by lying is global - it affects friends as well as enemies, unlike warmonger hate. It is strong, it lasts very long, and it can cost you in RAs, DoFs, and luxury trades. 4000 is a pittance compared to what you lost if there were as little as 3 AIs left in the game, since you can't really get that trust back. No amount of positive trading will erase it.

Zaldrizes:

Consider carefully before you refuse an AI request. Giving an AI something it's asking for freely counts separately from the "We've traded recently" column. Specifically, it counts on the "You gave us help when we needed it" column, and provides a strong positive modifier for at least two era's worth, IIRC. This is generally worth far more than what the AI is asking for, and you can't get it any other way.

 

[Walter R]

Is it just me or can anyone else feel a DOW coming on?
I'm learning bucket loads here about the strong and weaker Diplo modifiers - can't wait to get back to current game later, thanks guys.

 

[VainoValkea]

Is it just me or can anyone else feel a DOW coming on?
I'm learning bucket loads here about the strong and weaker Diplo modifiers - can't wait to get back to current game later, thanks guys.

Just remember that the diplo modifiers don't necessarily correspond to how the AI is actually going to behave. It's more like a facade to some...

 

[Zaldrizes]

Zaldrizes:

Consider carefully before you refuse an AI request. Giving an AI something it's asking for freely counts separately from the "We've traded recently" column. Specifically, it counts on the "You gave us help when we needed it" column, and provides a strong positive modifier for at least two era's worth, IIRC. This is generally worth far more than what the AI is asking for, and you can't get it any other way.

Damn. I've been a stingy little punk because of their perceived stinginess. It's odd how I'm trying to play a nice guy in the game, but I tell a friend in need he can't have my salt unless he gives me 400 gold. Oh no... have I become an AI?
But seriously, it's good to know. I'll be a better friend now. What an odd sentence for a video game. Gotta love Civ.