NTT (No Tech Trading) and diplomacy

[Manco Capac]

Hi everybody, I have a philosophical question regarding diplomacy in Civ4.

Here is the two conditions to give the environment of the game around which the game unfolds:

1) K-mod: a.k.a. crazy and untrustworthy AI's that might backstab even at FRIENDLY
2) NTT: No tech trading, I assume techs are usually the baits to initiate diplo actions.

The point is: If there are no techs for trades and we are stuck with a bunch of crazy AI's in which some are your worst enemies DoWing all the times punctuated by 10 turns peace treaties, is there any diplomacy at all remaining?

Cities are usually just for war tributes (thus useless) and gold isn't the best diplo bait as it hurt more to give it up than keeping it for teching.

My opinion is what makes techs the best trade bait is you're not really giving up something. If gotten out of a brokering, it's even better. But with gold, you may bribe or stop a war, but with crazy AI's you'll help those ones by giving up gold than really gaining any diplomatic move.

Thoughts?

 

[pomthom]

What do you mean by cities usually for war tributes?


Gifting early cities is still the quickest way to get an AI to Pleased with +4 Fir Trade if I'm not mistaken

Other than the classic shared religion/civics there's also the shared wars that can work since in K-mod there's a whole bunch of 'em.

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh well, as usual, even as simple my thread can be, I get the $hittiest amount of replies...guess that's what I deserve. Wow much disappointing so much unnerving wow.

What do you mean by cities usually for war tributes?


Gifting early cities is still the quickest way to get an AI to Pleased with +4 Fir Trade if I'm not mistaken

Other than the classic shared religion/civics there's also the shared wars that can work since in K-mod there's a whole bunch of 'em.

It's true you can gift a city to leverage strongly your diplomatic relationship, but what I talked about was more in terms of AZ favorite behavior: bribe on/off someone. Diplomatic manipulations that can aver very important in highest levels to minimize the RNG screwing everything up. Don't want that AI capitulate that AI victim: bribe him off. Don't want that AI next to your border with a stack of 60 units to DoW: bribe someone onto him. And so on.

Without techs allowed as trade baits, how to manipulate the AI anymore and that's the question?

I have in discussion with some people pointing at me as an heretic (so much of not my surprise) for pointing at them that they make no sense. They whine K-mod makes the game crazy and unbelievably undiplomatic, but they still persist in playing without tech trading on. I mean, hey dudes, if you want minimum of diplomacy, you need a strong trade chip to manipulate them. If you shoot in your feet, that's your problem, but don't whine if the game is random and gives unwanted results. Geez.

 

[pomthom]

Oh OK I see what you mean, yes no tech trading basically turns off bribing.

If you're Spriritual there's maybe a bit of room for cunning ninja techniques where you influence an AI's civics and religion (with cash or espionage) to piss off another AI. WHEOOHRN-triggering or somethin. Monty is not plotting and you want to keep him busy so to try and influence his next target you convert his BFF Hindu neighbour to Catholicism or some sht. Maybe Monty chooses him... or you! since you had to convert to Catho as well to influence the other dude

Yeah. That's very far fetched...

AZ did that once with Shaka playing Mansa, but he also had to put a bribe in to make it work...



EDIT: my thousandesthsth-ème post! Who cares about a lot of replies, that definitely makes the thread incredibly special

 

[Manco Capac]

EDIT: my thousandesthsth-ème post! Who cares about a lot of replies, that definitely makes the thread incredibly special

In fact, it is called diversity of opinions.
In fact, it is not the popularity that works for me (otherwise, I wouldn't started stuff I knew in the very beginning that won't work like "My Personal Thread", mods write-ups, etc.; the secret of popularity is to follow the mainstream , which I care less. Ha.), but I see no point starting a deep subject if I end up soliloquizing.

 

[Manco Capac]

But I admit I like soliquizing a lot during the evening when everyone is asleep sound. It is said to help a lot in one's development and talent at rhetorics, which I would be very good here if I wasn't a lazy bum.

 

[pomthom]

I hear ya, dudette.

And my apologies for being here, my answers are ruining your soliloquies!


PS: you may be hostile, or even dangerous, but you really don't strike me as someone who is a lazy bum

 

[Manco Capac]

I hear ya, dudette.

And my apologies for being here, my answers are ruining your soliloquies!

Why so angry? What did I wrong again?
Dudette? Call me dude pls. For uniformity sake.

PS: you may be hostile, or even dangerous, but you really don't strike me as someone who is a lazy bum

I think I'll change that title. Too much laughable methinks.

 

[pomthom]

No angriness at all, only making a joke (badly phrased evidently!)

EDIT: way too much x-editing in these last few posts

 

[Manco Capac]

C'mon people! C'mon Ponton!

No more trolling, I'm tired of this following in my wake. Olson is right. Moar true discussion. Seriously, when I'm around, people are just jesting and joking. We need serious discussion.

Ok, let's roleplay, I'm Iranon or VoiceOfUnreason. Now would people make jokes around these two individuals. I'm all serious now.

 

[pomthom]

Anyway, even though no tech trading virtually eliminates bribing I think there's still a lot of available shenanigans that can be pulled to control the diplo. It's simply a lot harder...

C'mon Ponton!

Is that what my nickname makes you think of??

 

[Manco Capac]

Since the first day I met you. I always wanted to step on you.

EDIT: Oh boy, here goes my ADHD/tourette mind.

 

[pomthom]

Very amusing, I like it. Also makes me realize I need some vacation in the sun!

 

[pomthom]

I always wanted to step on you.

EDIT: Oh boy, here goes my ADHD/tourette mind.

LOL, I always wanted to step on you. EDIT: Oh boy, here goes my ADHD/tourette mind. [/QUOTE]"]don't hurt me!

 

[Manco Capac]

Wow, haha?
My mind wanders a lot and keep changing subjects, but that (non) buddy is plain weird. And no, although I was originally a tourette when I was a kid, my actions are more coldly decided now and planified.

Seriously, dude, control your hand.
I'm so lucky my problems are vestigial.

 

[pomthom]

Hey it's you who spoke of gilles de la tourrette and stepping on people, it was just a reference to that...

Ok will edit out...

 

[Manco Capac]

Hey it's you who spoke of gilles de la tourrette and stepping on people, it was just a reference to that...

Ok will edit out...

Not angry. Just funny how I forgot how a true strongly affected tourette is. Never was strongly affected. Oh, no need to edit out.

Seriously, dude, control your hand.

Was referring to the weirdo. Not you.

 

[Ghpstage]

Ok, let's roleplay, I'm Iranon or VoiceOfUnreason. Now would people make jokes around these two individuals. I'm all serious now.

I don't have experience in k-mod, but I have played some games with NTT on, and your right theres a lot less available to trade around for diplo purposes, the only things you really have left are begs/demands, resource trades and city gifting.
War bribes are nigh impossible to afford. They and other, purely diplo things are more or less off the cards, as with gold they come with real physical costs rather than the relative cost of sharing a tech....

pomthoms religion swapping idea may be quite good, but your going to want to know that they will stay in that religion before you commit and make yourself a more likely target by throwing away your built up +diplo points.

With k-mods hyper aggresive AI have you thought about an espionage focus? A gifted culture swamped city should cut research costs down enough to support a significantly bigger military than usual, at least provided you could keep from killing off that civ too early

 

[Manco Capac]

K-mod has nothing so different than the base game. I have played 5 five games and the main aspects of major differences are:

1) AI can start by its own a second war when getting really strong (thus never be assured to be at peace)
2) When the AI sends a stack, the cost of the peace deal will re-augment dramatically again, wiping out all the humongous past war successes of the past until the stack is destroyed. It actually makes sense as we all abused the stock BTS AI with an inopportune AI next an undefended city and make peace right way thanks to past war success.
3) AI can DoW at FRIENDLY if no one to attack anymore. Meaning semi-isolation is hell compared to isolation now.
4) When reaching a strong domination landmark like 25% of the land % for domination, will really go all war and spam units after units
5) If the RNG decides to screw you up and one AI DoWs you, it's very possible you'll be stuck in way eternally with that AI and this punctuated with 10 turns enforced peace treaty during which it'll prepare the next wave
6) AI can WHEOOH you with a peace treaty.

The only good point with NTT is point 5) as the attacker tends to find every opportunity to bring someone along him/her. Every game ends up with someone stoneaged and killed at some point. It's crazy.

 

[pomthom]

Maybe you have to choose sides in a more committing way from the start?


Yeah well, if they declare at Friendly, I guess you can never be sure... which is realistic as well IMO