Obsolete's wonder strat implemented

Nuwan

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I got a nice start for trying Obsolete's wonder based strategy and it was a lot of fun.
Emp/Small/Fractal map as Justinian of the Byzantines (BTS).
Domination win in 1880.
Capital has NE/IW and Mining Corp.
18 Wonders in capital including AP, no Pyramids
I hooked up Marble in time for ToA, GL. No stone until near the end.
Settled 6 Prophets, 3 Great spies and 3 Great generals in Cap.
Base production (before modifiers) 108

Other civs - Shaka, Kublai Khan, De Gaulle and Pericles.
I gave a single non-cap city cottages and put Oxford University there.
The high culture % was due to trying to expand recently captured territory for Dom. win.

I found that the production based capital is very powerful when you get a good start for it.
 

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Excellent capital. The strat works well for capitals founded that are non-coastal and have trees with potential for lots of food and hill. Like yours, one of my recent games had an ideal location for this strat.

The only comment is the science yield on your game is lower than mine (I had something like 750 beakers at 50% slider). Granted I build two cottages (both flood plains) and started with 3 gems in teh BFC (like I said it was an ideal location for this). My leader was Peter (exp/phil) so like your game a non-industrial leader. I did build oxford in Moscow and I am guessing you built the ironworks in Constantinople.

Great game!
 
I've been basing my games on the settled great people+wonders-in-capital strategy too.

Settled great priests make for a capital that produces lots of hammers and gold. Bureaucracy becomes a huge boost. Bank+market+grocer will really keep your economy going. National epic is darn useful with all those wonders.

Cottages might be a poor choice compared to farms, as you can cottage up a couple of other cities (if you are a person who does cottages) and keep your national-epic capital cranking out GP points faster by using tons of farms.
 
While I see the value of settling GPs it is really game dependent.

Example. my current game as Louis XIV. Went to war a leveled 2 civs and perhaps I may go for more, but I am also building three cities to legendary status (early yet, just got banking). Cities are Paris, Lyons, Constantinople

My GPs: 1 Prophet for shrine of catpured AI budhist holy city (constantinople). Settle 1 GM in the Buddhist holy city since I am building market/grocer/bank ASAP there and plan to put Wall street there. Use 2 GEs to build Sistene Chapel and Notre Dame in Lyons. I free GA for a golden age (i have the mausoleum and wante the Great Library built ASAP). Used lone GS to build Academy in Paris.

As you this game I used GPs totally differently. They have alot of value settled but every situation is different.
 
An awful lot of the value of this strategy seems that it would be dependant on the map size/number of civs. On small maps, you'll have just a few cities. On larger maps, you'll have lots of cities. In a One City Challenge, you'll have one city.

If you settle a Great Person, you'll get a very nice boost in one of your cities. If you have 1 cities, 100% of your empire gets a very nice boost. If you have 20 cities, 5% of your empire gets a very nice boost.

If you lightbulb the Great Person, start a Golden Age or use a Great Engineer to rush an Empire-spanning wonder (Parthenon, Mausoleum of Golden Ages, Hanging Gardens, etc.), you get 2 cities worth of benefits in a 2 city empire while you get 20 cities worth of benefit from a 20 city empire.

I think that the most substantial differences come from looking at a couple of different options at the extremes.

A: Settle a Great Engineer - +3:production: per turn, +3:science: per turn.
B: Rush Hanging Gardens in OCC and whip the new population immediately:
30 hammers (plus production bonuses) and +1:health: in one city.​
C: Rush Hanging Gardens 20 city empire and whip the new population immediately:
well over 600 hammers and +1:health: in 20 cities.​

or...

A: Settle Great Merchant - +1:food: and +5 raw $$ per turn.
B: Lightbulb Currency in OCC between 3 and 6 extra commerce per turn.
C: Lightbulb Currency in 20 city empire - between 60 and 100 extra commerce per turn.

Big empires get big benefits from new technologies that they can leverage with their many cities. Tiny empires benefit from increased production/money/commerce/etc. granted to individual cities because the benefit is proportionately greater.

Just a thought.
 
It's not bad, though almost seems to be too much food. In
BtS you don't need as much as was needed in vanilla/warlords.
This is because of the new changes in the civics and ability to defy resolutions.

Also keep in mind as you move up to deity, your health/happiness cap gets hit harder still. That means having cities with mucho-food end up going to wastage because either pollution makes you hit the point of diminishing returns, or the unhappiness kills you.

Of course, in this example it works out fine, as long as you are not paying a fortune for those resources to keep that much food on hand. (also watch out you don't lose resources and have the population come tumbling down real quick).

5 food = 2.5 specialists, which also contrib GPPs once you get high enough. The problem is it takes time, and everything has to go and stay right.

Once your engineers are packed, you're down to 1h per specialist. Meanwhile, at BEST you can only pull 1h for the others (assuming AW is obsolete even if you built it). 5 food then = 2.5 hammers total with GPPs. But turn that floodplains tile into a properly configured workshop, and you now have 4 base hammers, with 1 food surplus for .5 of an added specialist ontop of that.

And now.. for something different....

Compare your city of population 26, to that of mine (last Immortal game) with only a population of 15 (little more than half of yours). Yet I'm pulling in over 1K here to your under 700 hammers. :P

So don't always be fooled by city size.

Though over-flow does muddle things up a bit.

unhappy.JPG
 
obsolete, do you have a link to a thread where you explain your wonder strat or is it only used in your impossible walkthroughts?
 
I think this will work regardless of map size. I don't play large maps but If a pre-conquest civilization has about 8-10 cities as in small maps, then a powerful capital can be quite helpful. 20+cities require a lot of early warmongering and this strategy doesn't go that route.
One point though is that you don't want to settle everybody. I think I used 4 scientists for academies, 1 prophet for a shrine, 1 engineer for mining Corp., and 3 others for two golden ages.
This strategy is pretty starting location dependent though I think. You basically want a lot of land to farm and mine. Briefly, the strategy involves building early Stonehenge, Oracle and a couple of other wonders and hopefully getting and settling a few great prophets or engineers early in your capital. I'm totally not pulling this off in my current game. :)

Responding to Obsolete, I probably had too much food in the capital, but I conciously wanted to make the city as large as possible (never gotten this big before). I think the best way to compare the production would be to look at base production before modifiers or overflow. I had a level of 108 hammers, which could be pushed to about 115 with more specialists and an industrial park. You probably did better in your city which generated 1000 hammers.
 
Big empires get big benefits from new technologies that they can leverage with their many cities. Tiny empires benefit from increased production/money/commerce/etc. granted to individual cities because the benefit is proportionately greater.

nice post summarizing it.

one reason why my recent shift from small maps to huge ones (new machine! :D ) has made the game completely different! :king:
 
obsolete, do you have a link to a thread where you explain your wonder strat or is it only used in your impossible walkthroughts?


There are about 4 (I think) walkthroughs I raced through a while ago. Other than that, I never did write an official strategy paper for the archives, as the concepts at the time were too unorthodox and hard to believe at the time.

Things have changed by now... one being it's easier for people to get away with not having to bulb in BtS than warlords, as well as other changes. Not to mention they've actually seen it done a few times by now.

That said, I suppose I could write one and not worry about it being rejected anymore, but there are so many things to do, and so little time.

There are quite a few old schoolers around who at least could do some sort of intro on one for now. Some names that I THINK who would have a decent understanding of it by now would be Futurehermit, Vale, VoiceofUnreason, and UncleJJ.

There is another oldschooler around, but he's so heavily into cottage spams, that it would probably never work without me arguing about everything :P
 
I think this will work regardless of map size. I don't play large maps but If a pre-conquest civilization has about 8-10 cities as in small maps, then a powerful capital can be quite helpful. 20+cities require a lot of early warmongering and this strategy doesn't go that route.
One point though is that you don't want to settle everybody. I think I used 4 scientists for academies, 1 prophet for a shrine, 1 engineer for mining Corp., and 3 others for two golden ages.
This strategy is pretty starting location dependent though I think. You basically want a lot of land to farm and mine. Briefly, the strategy involves building early Stonehenge, Oracle and a couple of other wonders and hopefully getting and settling a few great prophets or engineers early in your capital. I'm totally not pulling this off in my current game. :)

Responding to Obsolete, I probably had too much food in the capital, but I conciously wanted to make the city as large as possible (never gotten this big before). I think the best way to compare the production would be to look at base production before modifiers or overflow. I had a level of 108 hammers, which could be pushed to about 115 with more specialists and an industrial park. You probably did better in your city which generated 1000 hammers.

You are right about base values being important. But civics also cause big impacts on this as well. Technically, if someone had many workshops, but was forced off SP, then the food, and hence production would rapidly plumet. Thus, comparing his base values to someone else who isn't running under the same constrictions wouldn't be an accurate case either. There are a lot of these messy cases which arise.

And the whole issue of corporations now makes this even more messy when trying to guage TRUE hammer strength.

BTW, I'm not so sure using a GS to make FOUR academys is a wise move. There was an interesting thread about 2 years ago or so, where it was debated back and forth. Eventually everyone came to the agreement that it's always best to build just ONE academy, then attach all other GS into that city to maximize the other 3.

Barring some very weird cases, such as a very rich city, you should not be making more than one academy. Now, maybe your shrine was pulling in a lot of cash, and made it possibly viable here. But that is a catch-22, as you should know by now that wasting a GP on a shrine is hardly ever worth it :P
 
Some names that I THINK who would have a decent understanding of it by now would be Futurehermit, Vale, VoiceofUnreason

Hey, I've got my own strategy articles that aren't getting finished. No fair signing me up to not finish yours :)
 
yep settled great people are amazing, I used to waste my eningeers on hurrying wonders but now I find so long as you settle all of them in your cap, you never need to hurry production anymore since no AI city comes remotely close to your production powerhouse. I tend to build 3-5 academies, I find it strange that people think its best only to build one, since after a certian point, esp costal cities, the base science of the cities makes up for the extra beakers you'd get from the settle'd GS's wouldn't it?

with oxford, library, academy, labratory, university, (+225%) that settled GS only gives 6 + 6X225% = +27 science, or + 9(40.5 science) with rep. I tend to think that once you reach free market/univseral Sufferage the extra academies far outweigh the benefits of an extra great scientist so long as you build them on costal cities with a high base commerce (I often have 5-7 cities with a base commerce over 50). Anyhow, I'm people have thought over the math, but i'd be interested in the reasoning, maybe with representation settled GS's are better, but I like academies in my top 3-4 commerce cities.

in this game, I had every single wonder in 7 turns or less after I settled a bunch of Engineers/Priests in my cap. I'm surpised alot of people think "hmm.. I could either lightbulb meditation or built a 2nd shrine for the other religion I founded (tho only 2 cities have that religion).. I don't know what else to use my next preist for..." such idioicy imo. anyways, here's an example of my best prod city and it was all due to settled GP.

6turncritoonepicspeed0000.jpg



and just for fun, heres what I was able to get production up to by the end game.
Civ4ScreenShot0012-22.jpg
 
You have some nice overflow on that last one. Though technically your base is truthfully less than 150 because your city is in some bad starvation.

Actually, if you're willing to starve to max the hammers for a turn or two, you can tweak that city even more in that shot. There is a corn tile that is producing no hammers. You could remove that, and run one more engineer for 2 more hammers. You DO have more engineer slots open for this.

So that 2 hammers would equal 11 after going through the mods. That would give you 1562 verses the 1551 :P
 
You're also using a golden age.
 
ya ya, obvisouly I was going to have a golden age + max overflow to see what the max #hammers/turn would be and truthfully the "real" amount is much less, but my focus was just to see how high you can go not using factors you would normally have in a game. And your right, I in fact did take a few SS's of having 1562 hammers/turn with that corn converted into an engineer but some reason I loaded the wrong Picture files into photobucket. In fact if I let my city grow several more sizes with cereal mills/sids susi, and made all those tiles farms, then later watermills/workshops I'm sure I could break 1600 or even 1700, but I didn't want to spend anymore time just "getting a record" so to speak :P
 
BTW, I'm not so sure using a GS to make FOUR academys is a wise move. There was an interesting thread about 2 years ago or so, where it was debated back and forth. Eventually everyone came to the agreement that it's always best to build just ONE academy, then attach all other GS into that city to maximize the other 3.

Barring some very weird cases, such as a very rich city, you should not be making more than one academy. Now, maybe your shrine was pulling in a lot of cash, and made it possibly viable here. But that is a catch-22, as you should know by now that wasting a GP on a shrine is hardly ever worth it :P

I hope that Shrine suggestion was a joke. I see the :P, but people get some funny ideas here...

I just captured the holy city of the "other" major world religion and I spent a Great Priest to build the shrine since that civ apparently never got a Great Priest. I'm now picking up another 65 gold per turn in a city that never built a market, Apothecary or a Bank. I'm going to get busy on those buildings right now. :)

Also, the Academy or Settle debate came down to a couple of different scenarios:

1) Representation: Great Scientists produce 9 :science: and 1 :hammers: per turn under representation. That's 29.5 :science: with a Library, University, Observatory, Academy and Oxford University (no Labratory since that' only very late game). In order for a city to get an extra 29.5 :science: from an Academy, it would need to be consistantly producing a base of 59 :science: BEFORE BONUSES. This is certainly not common, but it's also not unheard of. If you have a second city that is producing more than 59 :science:, then it's probably worth an Academy in that second city.

For some reason, I remember the "break even" number as 63, but I believe that includes a Research Lab and I don't think that's a resonable comparison since so very much of the game is over before Research Labs and I expect that a Lightbulb would be more worthwhile by the time that the building is available.

2) No Representation: Great Scientists now produce only 6 :science: per turn with 1 :hammers:. That means the Oxford city gets only 19.5 :science: per turn and a second academy is more profitable than settling the Great Scientist if you get more than 39 :science: from a city (again, before bonuses). That means a second, third and even fourth Academy is going to be the best long term option fairly often in a Cottage Economy, especially if you have a food corporation.

Now, if it is relatively late in your game, then a Lightbulb will be your best option if you actually want the technology that you would get with the lightbulb. When I say relatively late, I mean late in that particular game. If it's 1000 BC, buit you're going to win the game in 5 turns, then it's very late in your game.

Take the number of :science: that you'll get from the lightbulb. Divide by the numbe of :science: that you'll get from settling the scientist or from building an academy. That result is the number of turns it will take for you to catch up to the lightbulb with your settled GS or Academy.

If the number of turns is greater than the number of turns you're going to play, then the lightbulb is obviously a better option (again, if you like the tech that the lightbulb will fetch.

If the number of turns is significantly lower than the number of turns that you're going continue playing that game, then you have to weigh the long term benefits of the extra science you'll get from the settled GS vs. the long term benefits you'll get from getting the tech earlier than later. This is particularly significant for religious techs and military techs where getting the tech a few turns earlier can be leveraged into a significant long term advantage for the entire game. I'm not advocating reckless lightbulbs, but I do believe that Great People are such significant resources that a careful consideration of all of your options is worthwhile, even if you "don't believe in lightbulbing" or some such.
 
I think the decision on what to do with specialists can be situational. You don't want to make comparisons with how things will be with Rep/Oxford if you are just at 0 ad without pyramids.

In the above game, I had a bureaucratic capital and a science city with 15 cottages and a gold mine. Both those cities definitely needed academies. The third came from comparing the immediate benefit of whether to settle the scientist (which was 1 hammer and 10.5 beakers) or build an academy in a city with about 25 base beakers. Timing is important in civ and sometimes the temporary benefit may be better than waiting for the eventual payoff once you get Rep/Oxford running. The 4th was probably a mistake made partly because I thought academies gave you the ability to run 3 more scientist (this was in the National Park city).

I believe either my 3d or 4th prophet went into constructing the shrine. When I built it, there was 14 Confuscian cities and I think that is worth making the shrine.
 
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