DoC 1.18 Civilizations

[keli]

Completely disagree with your examples. There are some very difficult and random-reliant UHVs (like China/Rome technological goals which can be ruined by AI randomly deciding to beeline them), but ones you named are certainly not among them.

1) English UHV is much easier than the 1.17 one (at least on paper), Drydock, Trafalgar Square, Colonialism, settled Great General(s) and Meritocracy let you build level 3+ ships without them having to fight once. And it wasn't hard in the first place (just very tedious and boring).
2) Spanish and Austrian UHV are pretty easy if you don't forget to use spies to force religion change and (optionally) religious civic to Theocracy to make Protestantism slowly die out. Bonus points in case of Austrians because you certainly won't mind Great Statesmen from Statesmen spam.
3) Ending 12 wars in the age of cascading defensive pacts shouldn't be any difficult, especially with crazy Canadian modifiers allowing to gift/sell lots of technologies.
4) Russia is already probably the strongest civ in the game. Haven't tested them yet (but trying new gulag meta is definitely on my list). Turbowhipping 30 ICBMs sounds like a small footnote of your ordinary 5-Turn Plan.

I agree that more often than not you have to reload particulary unlucky results (my spies failed to convert Prussia to Catholisim 4 times in a row with 75%+ chances as Austria, after that i simply savescummed the last attempt), but it's mostly true for early civs where one bad roll can break your entire game plan (like losing the starting Hittie Hulaganni early). None of your examples can be botched by a single roll.

As a side note to Leoreth: i found out that Greek AI dies to Sea People invasion extraordinary often, so far in around a half of games. This also causes a butterfly effect of Persia not being invaded and remaining a major power at least until Middle Ages. Probably they should be weakened a bit, or Greece should spawn after the Bronze Age collapse, with early indep cities representing Mycenean civilization.

Interesting, I didn't feel that Rome is actually that hard on 1.17.
May I inquire what difficulty level you play on? Because on Monarch/Emperor it's quite hard to end wars or be a tech leader as Russia most of the game, when focusing on the UHV (1.17).
Building level 3 naval units with England directly is actually quite clever.

As for Japan, you need to generate great artists constantly and you can't ensure 100% rate for them. Feels a bit bad to reload each time a 70%+ chance doesn't materialise.

I am looking for feedback based on actual play experience, thanks.

Well, then my post is not to you. There are other people in the thread.
The goal is so I can get others' opinion and maybe to also spark a discussion, also for my own entertainment and interests.

 

[Dracosolon]

It is supposed to be of either, can you share a save of that? Ideally before spreading the 12th religion?

If it's supposed to be either, it might be more legible to have separate counters.

Anyway here's a save before spreading the 12th Catholic Missionary in Athens - no victory. I also tried to spread religion via a Great Prophet mission but that didn't affect my counter, maybe it should to get it over quicker.

This UHV is kind of counter-intuitive because you're rewarded for leaving Rome alive (and since they get huge stacks of conquerors, seems like it's easier to hand them Gaul) - otherwise Orthodoxy and Catholicism take much longer to spread to you, and your maintenance goes down the drain.

All in all I'm not too sure about this last goal. It fits with the Celts' low tech since you just have to research Clergy, but it's slow and prone to randomness - especially since the parts of Europe where spreading Catholicism is easier will often already have it. Maybe controlling 12 state religion buildings might be better (that would require controlling 6 cities). But maybe the mad rush to find foreign city to spread Catholicism to is appropriate.

Still I'm happy that the Celts are finally in the game (and that you left Brittany out of France's flipzone, which is cool). Might make for some fun alt-history long game if they can catch up in tech.

 

[Leoreth]

Well, then my post is not to you. There are other people in the thread.
The goal is so I can get others' opinion and maybe to also spark a discussion, also for my own entertainment and interests.

That's fine, I just want to be clear that discussion based on theoretical preconceptions is useless to me and I won't engage with it.

 

[Leoreth]

If it's supposed to be either, it might be more legible to have separate counters.

I mean that both are supposed to count combined towards a shared goal of 12. How would you do separate counters for that?

Anyway here's a save before spreading the 12th Catholic Missionary in Athens - no victory.

Thanks, I will look into it.

I also tried to spread religion via a Great Prophet mission but that didn't affect my counter, maybe it should to get it over quicker.

Good point, I did not account for great prophets in the implementation but I agree that it would be better if they count.

 

[Dracosolon]

I mean that both are supposed to count combined towards a shared goal of 12. How would you do separate counters for that?

Ah, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that it was 12 of one religion.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Interesting, I didn't feel that Rome is actually that hard on 1.17.

Neither did i, although iirc it's considered one of harder UHVs to achieve, not in the least because in the early Medieval China AI begins to fully utilize its Taixues. You have to guess which tech to research because they are quite capable of suddenly beating you to one of them, purely because you have chosen another.

May I inquire what difficulty level you play on? Because on Monarch/Emperor it's quite hard to end wars or be a tech leader as Russia most of the game, when focusing on the UHV (1.17).

Regent/Monarch on Normal, Monarch + some attempts as Emperor at Marathon. I've stated a lot of times that for most civilizations Maranarch is easier than Regent/Normal (i'm still not sure if American Normal Regent is possible without extensive savescumming, for example: you need lots of luck to conquer all Carribean one tile islands without means to weaken them with artillery/aviation, or at least indep them via core collapse; note that i play 3000 BC start whenever possible, iirc on 1700 AD start there are less Carribean one tile colonies).
Iirc difficulty doesn't affect diplomacy, it only gives a small hidden malus to relationships, but being a yes-man to AI demands and having no state religion always works.

As for Japan, you need to generate great artists constantly and you can't ensure 100% rate for them. Feels a bit bad to reload each time a 70%+ chance doesn't materialise.

Don't think so, it used to be 6000 culture per city on smaller map with less time and wasn't particulary hard with ~100% culture slider (you are expected to fall behind, that's why you have your UP) and Himeji. The new UHV simply prevents exploit of settling one city and spawning 2 GAs asap, while allowing a bit more agressive gameplay.

 

[TsimTsigal]

YES YES SUCK IT ETHIOPIA

Uh, excuse me, but i spent a half of Sunday trying to achieve the Swahili UHV without dying to Zara Yakob randomly deciding that Africa is overcrowded in 1.18 (and losing to a weirdly persisting hurricane destroying precisely a Post Office in Kilwa). As i said, there is no way Swahili can defend itself other than spamming Archers/Skirms via Citizenship, so the deadline turned out to be around turn 320 for me. Probably shouldn't have settled Malindi, it's not a good city overall and possibly is on Ethiopian war map, but you need ~6 cities to win...

Interesting civilization for sure. Don't quite get the point of UP (it saves a few turns on workers and some yields), but it's mostly restricted by how short its UHV goals are. The only entities i've ever built were Skirmishers, Workers, Harbors, Fishing Ships, Lighthouses, Post Offices, UBs and Settlers. Ah, and culture - once (to connect that fish in lake Victoria). There isn't much strategy, simply take Zimbabwe asap and keep your Dhows busy.

Side note: they start with Tributaries but not Feudalism which causes them to swap to Sovereignity on the first turn.

 

[Leoreth]

Ah, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that it was 12 of one religion.

Yeah I also phrased it misleadingly - when I said either I meant in the sense that either religion contributes to the shared goal.

 

[banzay13]

Bye Bye summer

 

[wcascade]

super stoked about the update. loved trying some of the new civs today looking forward to trying more. keep it up Leoreth

 

[CivEnthusiast]

Last post confuse me a little bit. IMHO AI Russia is weak. In real life, russian troops visited Berlin a couple of times (1760/1813) and Paris once by 1814. In the game, Peter loses Kiev over and over again with all the upgraded strelets in the war against the only Poland (in 1.17 it was also ordinary BUT when against Austria+Poland or Turkey).

P.S. Austria and Poland spam an infinite number of cities and even mostly outside their core. The original map from the 1700 scenario looks cool and aesthetically pleasing, but then the 9 cities of Francis I are somehow... It doesn't look good...

P.S.S. Here, of course, could be a joke about the fact that AI Peter forgot that in the new version, General Frost is no longer on his side. Or that the Habsburgs were given maps from future version 1.20, where Europe is 4 times larger than before. But I'm still inclined to believe that russian troops are roaming somewhere towards Alaska at the beginning of the game.

Speaking of the troops just roaming away in a single pack for no reason, saw this happening to Assyria, they simply sent all of their forces east of Elam, keeping them idle there while leaving their mainland completely defenseless

 

[Dracosolon]

Egypt's UHV is completed, though it requires a bit of luck for wonders and combat odds (mostly because its UU is not great against Archers, and outright terrible against Nubia's Medjay UU). Wonders are more uncertain but Great People substitute for poorer floodplains. I completed the Pagan URV by accident - was something done to make sure the AI build more Pagan Temples?

Babylonia is roughly the same as it was, with an added goal of three wonders that you probably want anyway. Biggest differences are your Assyrian neighbors and your Marble being forested over, which means your best wonders (Oracle and Ishtar Gate) will not benefit from the bonus unless you do a tech detour toward Alloys. You can reasonably complete the last goal before the Persian invasion.

Harappa's first two goals are still doable with a bit of micro, though the barbarians are a nasty surprise. The second goal of 45 population is too high IMHO and incites you even more to spam City Builders in all of India. A lower number but restricted to core and historical population would be more interesting.

 

[TsimTsigal]

I completed the Pagan URV by accident - was something done to make sure the AI build more Pagan Temples?

A lot more ancient civs, more cities plus longer ancient era. In 1.17 and earlier only Egypt, Phoenica, Rome, Greece and Maya were building Pagan Temples in any noticeable quantities; the number of pagan civs essentially doubled in 1.18, plus AI is a lot more reluctant to embrace major religions now.

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

While I disagree with America having three unique units, I think three uniques should be something for either heavily powerful or long-spanning civs like Russia, France or China.

(I have some ideas but I don't feel like turning the conversation into that direction).

Also, as for Mexico I find it curious to see its new UP. Where did you get the idea? From its Law system being influenced by Positivism? (Common in Latin America and continental Europe)

 

[Leoreth]

The Cientifico movement in Mexico under Porfirio Diaz.

 

[spydama]

Absolutely fantastic! I will be playing this mod throughout the summer. I've played as France and China, and now I'm currently playing as Vietnam. I achieved a Historical Victory with China. Here are some of my observations from playing:

1. In every playthrough, AI England collapses very easily. Particularly, when England starts its expedition to India, it cannot withstand the stability penalties.
2. AI China is extremely unstable. They collapse and rebirth frequently. While this could be considered historical, it makes occupying Chinese territory pointless. Even if I occupy parts of China, the land reverts to Chinese control every time they collapse and rebirth.
3.Since cordoba no longer has a port, If AI Spain builds Leon, they cannot establish colonies. In this case, Morocco culturally controls the Strait of Gibraltar, preventing Spain from opening its borders, and Spain has no port on the Atlantic side.
4. If AI Korea builds Gyengseong, it seems that AI Russia cannot build Vladivostok.

Thank you, as always.

 

[Dracosolon]

Anyone has done the Hittite UHV yet? It's a very short one but holy hell these barbarians are annoying.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Anyone has done the Hittite UHV yet? It's a very short one but holy hell these barbarians are annoying.

Yes. My strategy as follows:

1) Spam Hulaganni.

 

[spydama]

Can the Hittites survive?
When I played as Phoenicia, Greece, Persia, and Rome, the Eastern Mediterranean was swarming with demons from hell—the Sea Peoples.
The Hittites were historically doomed, but even Greece, which should have survived, didn't.

 

[Cypriot]

Greece shouldn't have survived. I mean, Mycenaean Greece did collapse historically. I genuinely don't understand why we don't have later Greece spawn date.