OCC: Seeking advice

[fdtori]

Nah... not colonies. Trade. Colonies will get run over.

Also, you need to try to make do without resources, if possible.

ah, thank you Tomoyo-san; trade it is, but what do you trade?

You have no territory to speak of so trading resources is not an option unless you have a lucky start (I'm guessing you reload until starting position is great).
You will be behind on tech early on so how can you trade techs??
maybe if you fight a couple of early wars while AI units aren't too far advanced then you sell peace for techs and try to broker them around... which means a lot of exploring to find other civs before everybody else... Mmmhh, I'm thinking this will work much better on small archipelago maps, maybe that's why I feel daunted by OCC, you see I almost always play on pangea maps, so AIs are very fast on science, especially at deity level.

On Island maps maybe it gives you the breathing room you need to stay afloat. And also on small maps, resources are less sparse.

Or am I totally wrong with my assumptions?

 

[Cerebra]

fdtori:
In a word, you trade......anything of value. Nothing is worth holding on to.

In my experience, you make as much money as possible throughout the entire game. You beeline for Literature (at 10% research) and build Great Library so that you will be even with techs throughout the ancient and middle age. You start buying techs when Great Library expires. Once you buy them, you sell them to everyone else. As I have mentioned, being scientific is a real help, since you get free techs and you are often the only civ with that tech (if you plan it correctly). I get a HUGE nationalism pay, and go from earning 38 gpt (gold per turn) to 2000 gpt just by selling it around.

With all the trading, the other civs are always either polite or gracious towards you - War is only a problem when warding off barbarians early.

If I see an opportunity to build a colony, I usually go grab it, but I'll often trade it away. For example, I don't need Iron very often, but other civs will pay very well for your *only* source of iron.

I spend the whole game being rich and trading. The only techs I research myself are Writing and Literature. The rest are from GL, bought, or stolen. (stealing techs is easy, since 1) my opponents are polite/gracious, so they look the other way if I get caught, and 2) If I got caught, I'm rich enough to buy alliances with everyone else)

There is a terrific thread detailing OCC strategy over at Apolyton. I'm not sure if it is legal to post the link, but if it is, I'll go ahead and do so later....

 

[Cerebra]

Well, that was fast.

I played my first OCC on standard map/pangea/diety, and lost quickly. As soon as I learned Literature, the Egyptians demanded it as a tribute. Since I was not confident that I could out-build them, I refused, and they declared war. Since I couldn't see them, I figured I might never have to fight a battle. However, within a few turns, they had formed alliances with everyone else on the planet. Ugh.

For a while, I thought I might pull it off. I defended Athens successfully, and after my first battle (a victory) I entered a Golden Age - Yay! I'll surely build Great Library first now! My two hoplites were elite, and I was hoping for a Great Leader. Unfortunately, the AI won a war of a attrition. My two hoplites could only ward off so many attackers each turn, and they eventually got to me. Game over in 24 minutes.

I'm off to try again....

 

[Tomoyo]

DO NOT TRY OCC ON DEITY WHEN YOU FIRST TRY IT. You'll be killed. Try a lower level, or maybe try an archipelago map.

By "trade" I meant, trade your gold (which you'll have some of, but not much) for said resources. Whether or not technology is more important is another question.

 

[Cerebra]

Yeah, I played Emporer in my first OCC games. Diety is a pain so far.

I didn't *lose* my second DIETY attempt, but I lost the race to Great Library, which effectively loses the game. Man, two losses within one hour; this is not going well......back to try again.....

 

[Drakan]

That's the spirit....

 

[Cerebra]

First off, here's the excellent thread on OCC's I was mentioning:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=90855

Okay, playing on Diety is not going well. The source of my problems is this: I can't win the race to Literature. I win the race to writing - fine (well, some of the others have it, but I can use it well diplomatically). But the AI *always* gets to literature first, and builds Great Library before I can. FYI, The GL routinely gets built around 1400 AD.

I've tried to find some ways around this. I've found that I can build Colossus easily, but I've resorted to using it as a prebuild. I make sure to acquire Masonry&Mysticism at some point so that I can prebuild longer (using Pyr/Oracle), extending me to whoever discovers Literature.

Even then, I face one of two problems: 1) The AI builds both Pyr&Oracle before the discovery of Literature (ruining my prebuild, with wasted shields and Colossus consolation prize), or 2) Even despite my prebuilding from VERY early, the AI builds Great Library when I'm a few turns away. In other words, the AI builds GL at, say 1400BC, when I could manage to get it built at 1300BC.

To be honest, I'm really starting to question whether Great Library can be part of a OCC strategy on Diety. I've tightened up my routine to building warrior-worker-warrior-GLprebuild, and I'm still getting beat to the Library.

In one of these attempts, I was able to do some excellent work on the Trade Desk, to the point of being rich AND technologically even with everyone, and I'm really feeling that that is the better route. I think researching writing is about all I will ever do, since I can use it in trade and get myself caught up in the tech race. At that point, I'm guessing I'll be wealthy enough to pay my way through the ancient-era-tech race. How that will fly once I'm not ancient....we'll see. I'll certainly need a big payout from my era-transition tech. To this end, my ability to easily build Colossus will help with the cash-flow.

Of course, I'd much appreciate any suggestions.

The only other thought I've had is this (and it seems like suicide): Invite an early war with someone. Fortify Athens with enough (veteran) Hoplites that it can probably be defended (say, 5 hoplites - just an estimate). Hope for them to become elite and produce a Great Leader. I will probably enter a Golden Era from the battles being won, but even if I don't , the Great Leader can rush my Great Library. Make peace and get everyone happy from all the trading. It's inviting doom, but the benefits are there, and it certainly amounts to taking advantage of one of the Greeks' biggest strengths - the Hoplite.

 

[JMK]

The only other thought I've had is this (and it seems like suicide): Invite an early war with someone. Fortify Athens with enough (veteran) Hoplites that it can probably be defended (say, 5 hoplites - just an estimate). Hope for them to become elite and produce a Great Leader. I will probably enter a Golden Era from the battles being won, but even if I don't , the Great Leader can rush my Great Library. Make peace and get everyone happy from all the trading. It's inviting doom, but the benefits are there, and it certainly amounts to taking advantage of one of the Greeks' biggest strengths - the Hoplite.

Well I do not think you can base your strategy on having a Great Leader or not, this is too much luck involved.
I will first talk about your map type, at Deity play archipelago, small or standard size, try to get access to the ocean and having fresh water, a few re-start may be required. If you can have gold within the 20 tiles that will be a great help.
I will then set my reaserch at 100% on pottery, prebuild my granary, train a couple standard warriors and another worker (greek are not working so fast), then I will set my research on writting at 10% (Yes, it will take 40 turns) while building the colossus.
The Colossus is a MUST HAVE it will allow you to earn a lot of GPT during the game and to research much faster. After writting research Litterature as fast as you can, build your library before the great library, you will have plenty of time, then research map making, you will need a few galleys to sail around and meet your opponents.
As soon as you finish the Great library you will enter into your Golden Age, use it to build the Great Light. Never stop to research even after having built the great library. GOOD LUCK.

 

[Cerebra]

Well, it's been a whille, but....success!!!

I've managed to win on Diety in a OCC. Wanted to thank those of you who threw in some advice along the way.

What I did was....I went back and played a whole bunch of OCC on Emporer, to refine my technique. Then I tried a non-OCC game on Diety (man, once you've mastered OCC, the non-OCC games are easy as pie). Finaly, I went ahead and played OCC on diety. Apparently, all that experience paid off.

Some things I was doing wrong....
1) I was right to beeline for Literature, but I think I was wrong to sell off Writing as soon as I got it. I didn't sell off Writing this time, and I easily won the race to Literature. I had been building GL for about a dozen turns before I finally decided it was safe to sell Literature around for whatever I could get.

2) Unlike all my games on Emporer, I actually did a little researching this time. I learned Metallurgy and Radio on my own, just to save a little dough in trading. However, I never built a library, nor did I build Cope's or Newton's. I've given up on those as priorities. To me, the only must-build wonders are GL and Theory of Evolution. And I think it's possible (though probably quite tough) to manage without TOE. The problem would be that the techs start getting more expensive, in tandem with the lack of TOE payout. (Of course, since I always prefer to win diplomatically, b/c I don't see the point in taking the extra hours to win the space race, the United Nations is a 3rd must-build wonder)

3) Invest the money in each age to upgrade those hoplites. If you've got Athens defended by Hoplites in the industrial age, and another civ happens to have a few calvary passing by, they might just decide it would be nice to take you out, even if they are gracious.

4) Lastly, if you get attacked and start building alliances with the rest of the world, wait out those 20-turn alliances before making peace with your foe. This didn't happen in my diety win, but I had one experience where the chinese attacked me out of nowhere, so I rallied the rest of the world against them in alliances. I initiated a peace treaty with the Chinese ASAP, and the rest of the world was annoyed with me. The most infuriating is that my foreign adviser was telling me that so-and-so "is at war with our FRIENDS, the Chinese." I didn't want to be their friends, but by making peace with them early, myself and the chinese were ostracized for the rest of the game, no matter how many gifts I gave. My diplo victory was screwed.

Anyways, I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, but I'm rambling on anyways. Thanks, and happing CIVing!

 

[Admiral8Q]

I'd like to thank everyone who takes the time to share their knowledge and questions about strategies for Civ3. In this thread alone I've learned more than my brain can absorbe at once.


I'm going to try a OOC game on Emperor now. In a normal game I usually win through domination, (I don't like to play other wins, call me violent if you want!) so focusing on a Diplo-win or Space-win with only one city should be an interesting change, and challenge.

I'll let you know how it turns out and share my mistakes which will be indeed plentiful on my first attempt(s).

 

[Admiral8Q]

Well, I think my first OOC will be a bust

Here's how it looks so-far, figures I'd get stuck on a small island in the middle of nowhere. Well I'll play it through anyways.

EDIT: Interesting. I'm at 290 A.D. made contact with the Mongols and the Chinese. Traded some gold for tech. The Mongols settled on the top-left side of my island and stole my dyes colony. However they seemed to disband their city for no apparent reason. I reclaim a colony on the dyes, but there is a damaged Chinese archer where the Mongol city was... oh wait I get it.

 

[Admiral8Q]

OCC: Emperor, small map, arcipelago

Lost after 3 hours. Space race loss. 1992
Too bad, I probably would have won the dip win. Everyone loved me.

The game overall was extremely dull. Built the courthouse about 20 times. Still, an interesting challenge.

I don't know Cerebra, but I'd have to say it was the starting location?

 

[Cerebra]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you....

Some notes. First off, yeah, your starting location is not good. Personally, I will quickstart again and again to get a start location that works well for me. Which, of course, begs the question: What makes a good start location?

I'm fairly picky when it comes to this, since I'll be investing about 6 hours in a game, I want to think my location gives me a good shot at winning. Here are some musts:
1. Most important, a source of fresh water. It'd be very difficult to win the race to build GL if you can only have a size 6 city.
2. Access to ocean: necessary for Colossus.
3. Some hills/mountains. At least two will do, although you could feasibly do with just a bunch of diamond-grasslands. Why? You need to maximze your size 12 city for production. That means zero surplus food at size 12 with hills/mountains in favor of grassland/plains. Your doing well if your at size 12 with no food surplus and making about 17-22 shields per turn.

After this, the rest are things I would like, but don't necessarily require.
4. A couple of squares that are bonused in some way - e.g. golden hills/mountains, cows, wheat. Even a large collection of diamond grassland. Not an absolute must, but they help.
5. Some kind of luxury in proximity. Eases the burden of early unhappiness and gives you something extra to trade. Other civs will pay very handsomely for your *only* source of something. Especially early in the game, money can be thin, so the more the better. You want to do everything possible to make sure you're not broke by the time you're buying those transition techs to get to the industrial age (magnetism and theory of gravity).
6. As few Ocean squares as possible. They're good for trade but that's it. No shields until miniaturization, and the game will be over before that gets discovered. I think my record is only having 4 ocean squares, but I've won games with 8+ ocean squares

This being said, the game I won on Diety, I only had 1,2 and 3. I had to buy/trade for every other resource, and won just fine.

For your next attempt. why not play on standard- or large-sized map , with the biggest pangea possible. You'll greet those other civs faster and get more out of your Great Library. Archipelago is more necessary in Diety because the tech rate is so fast.

As far as building Courthouse over and over, I rarely have many free turns where I am not trying to build something. Early on, I have some free time in between Colossus and GL-prebuilding. Usually, I try to build a Granary and a couple extra workers in that time (although it's not a bad idea to build a Granary before Colossus, but I'd rather assure myself of winning the race to Colossus). Once I build GL, I get a ton of techs and I'm in a golden age, and I like to try to milk another wonder out of my golden age. Hanging Gardens woud be great, Sistine Chapel is even better, but both are sometimes not available. In the middle ages, I take the chance of building Sistine (with Sun Tzu or Leo's workshop as a consolation, or just a cathedral/bank as a consolation if I get beat to all three) - sometimes I make it, sometimes I don't. Otherwise, I'm busy building cathedral, colusseum, bank. By the late middle age, there are lots of wonders to try to build. With the Industrial age, I'm building factory/coal plant/hostpital, not to mention enough workers so that I can railroad my entire city quickly. Then I'm working on Theory of Evolution (a must-build no matter what I'm doing when SciMethod is discovered). After that, I'm building Hoover's Dam. By that time, winning is so close that I just build stock exchange/commercial docks and have a few turns of welath before I use Intelligence agency as a prebuild to whatever becomes available in the modern age. In modern age, I do whatever I can to get Fission ASAP and build UN for my diplo win, which usually occurs safely before 1600. If I weren't spending a lot of time changing diapers and such, my guess is that the game would take 4 hours max.

 

[Cerebra]

Post-Script

One could theoretically eliminate requirement#2 (access to ocean). My diety win did not include Colossus, since I got beaten to it. If you had fresh water, a few grassland cows and, say, a few golden mountains/hills, it might just be worth it to forgo Colossus and focus your early efforts on finding another civ, buying pottery, and making your city a worker-factory until it was time to build the Great Library. Haven't tried it, but it could certainly be done.