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OCC strategy

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by Thibix Magnus, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    I’m curious to hear thoughts about OCC. It can be very funny, and can be actually quite different from a normal tall play. I’m only now playing my first (emperor-quick, willing to go higher difficulties) and just theory-crafting for more. Here are my initial thoughts but curious to hear about other’s experiences, particularly on higher difficulties.

    Because of the drawbacks (OCC and quick speed), I allow myself some treats: convenient start to see the monopoly layout, and restart at will. I’m just gonna stay there so I might as well get a nice location! Re-starting until you are happy is a fun game in itself. Considerations for city location, in addition to the usual stuff for a good capital:

    - Defensive features, as I can’t rely on satellites or large armies. It could also mean fewer workable tiles than a normal tradition capital. Mountains, lakes… and if coastal, a strait between land masses really helps. I would add aesthetic considerations here too. Your only city should be really special.

    - How I can reach my monopoly (that should be a % bonus one). Will border expansion be enough? Will I need a citadel, will it make an enemy? Will I use statecraft instead? Will I be William? Do people just forsake monopoly in OCC?

    - Monopoly type: should probably be a percent-based bonus, as only a small number of resources will be worked by the city. Exception being faith, as picking beliefs is so important. Corporation is maybe less important but can be a factor.

    - Victory type and map: for cultural, it helps to reach all players with trade routes so either pangea or coastal city. I don’t know how viable are science or diplomacy OCC, science has the advantage of being the most friendly victory, if the start is great but really hard to defend.

    These additional constraints mean some civs that are maybe not tradition-oriented might actually make good OCC, like Inca that can set an impregnable capital while not losing yields to mountains, Soshone have better chances to reach the monopoly, defend better and optimize ruins...

    Pantheon: besides Nature for Inca and Festivals for Holland (risky), the only option is probably goddess of Beauty. Maybe purity with a big Aztec lake, but very hard until border growth is tweaked to target lakes.

    Wonders: to found with Beauty, hard to not spam a bit at the beginning. Great Wall can be important for both defense and reaching monopoly with a citadel. After it’s a matter of managing aggression: OCC has a harder time defending than a 3 city tradition, but the more defensible the city is, the more wonder spam is viable.

    Religion: most holy city yields founders are good. I’m still finding hard to justify DI outside of golden age civs. My current play is Byzantium OCC and I’m not convinced of DI (Pilgrim super holy sites are fun though). If willing to maintain a dominant religion for diplomacy, OCC might struggle to generate faith so ceremonial might be particularly useful.

    What are people’s experiences? Do you prefer some types of map, do you go for science or even diplo victories, maybe vassals, which path to reach monopoly, notably at higher difficulties?
     
  2. Drakle

    Drakle Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    I did an Epic Pangea India (with 3rd and 4th Unique Components and spawned in a desert River valley with a few forest tiles in the upper range, and a decent number of desert hills. I had a Golden age Luxury, mine that I got a monopoly of with some border growth outside the workable range, along with another luxury. I traded them all away as soon as I got them since I had no need for luxury happiness for ages.

    One thing about India OCC, is that you likely won't reform. Something I didn't realise when picking them. I was first to Patheon, of course being India (Beauty) and fairly quick to a religion (second). I focused on pressure, maxing out my trade routes to nearby cities (Normal amount of trade routes + Petra). Still, nowhere near enough to reform, and all my progress was quickly rolled back by Ethiopia, Songhai and Siam, my neighbours who all founded. I even grabbed St Basil (A wonder I never previously bothered with), and still didn't make it.

    In terms of religious beliefs, I didn't bother to grab any religious building beliefs, just citizen bonuses. Instead, I just grabbed the wonders that grant those, for the ones I wanted. Petra, Cathedral and Wonder Age make my flood plain farms great for gold.

    Quick speed I think is a real mistake. You will be wasting a lot of production overflow. Even on Epic, I had lots of stuff complete in a single turn.

    An Inland start I think is the best choice, to maximise tiles to put great person tile improvements on.

    Anyway in my game, I found I couldn't hold onto more than a couple of city-states, plus a few random quests. Songhai declared war on me, just to murder my allied city-state (where I put an embassy). A funny thing happened. Songhai had just setted a city to my south in the desert, and I helped said city-state with a single trireme to take that city. Then a few turns later, Songhai took the city-states original capital. Songhai and I went through two wars throughout the medieval and Renaissance, where we deadlocked. There was a narrow desert pass between the sea and a mountain range. So Songhai's massive army with UU vs my much smaller army, which had upgraded versions of my archer UU. The war swung back and forth, since I tried to liberate the city states original capital, but it eventually just deadlocked again.

    Anyway, I wonder whored a lot (otherwise I would have nothing to spend on), kept my military up to my meagre military cap (I grabbed some wonders that give supply, but it still meant I was badly outnumbered. Then when the world Congress started, everybody freaked out. Declarations from civs that were on the other side of the Continent, and could only send a couple of easily dispatched units. Four civs in a row saying they would win a science victory instead of me, in the industrial era. Everybody voting to sanction me.

    So that game I got bored and just stopped playing. I was on track to win an eventual cultural victory, but the endless war with a tiny army were getting annoying.


    I did briefly attempt a Pangea Aztec OCC Domination game. Since the Aztecs have an easy path to getting a religion, have food bonuses to grow the capital tall and military bonuses. However that game had bug issues, and so had to be dropped.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  3. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Yeah I take quick speed as another difficulty level, I want to try maps and combos :)

    About the religion, with India a great prophet focus could work to reform I guess, although it's obviously easier if not surrounded by strong religions. With prophecy and ceremonial burial you could pump them out in rather quick succession. I would think being coastal helps with religion too, not that many tiles to work but you suffer less religious pressure. Also easier to keep diplomatic relations if you are not in everyone's way.

    At least in previous versions, wonder spam is better if you have the army to protect your CS allies. I had one OCC wonder spam attempt, warring a lot, my city was absolutely impregnable and nukes were banned early so I stayed alive with some epic sieges. But indeed you end up sanctioned and travel banned and it gets impossible. I took Byzantium (very fun combos for OCC), DI and pilgrim. DI was a mistake without a golden age perk, pilgrim was a lot of raw tourism on holy sites but not enough in that case.

    My second attempt is very close but more winnable. I don't know if it's because I'm much more selective with wonders or because of the recent AI changes, but I get decent relations (also a fantastic whale start lets me avoid beauty as pantheon). Working on diplomacy to pass world religion and avoid travel ban or sanctions is huge for a culture win. Playing the underdog and navigating the political landscape without attracting too much attention is really funny and keeps on edge, with some drastic decisions to make, picking the right sides, channelling everyone against an overextended scapegoat, etc. Going Order (OCC!) might even be the right choice if you anticipate the top culture rival will do that.

    This time I tried Apostolic-Ceremonial-Prophecy-TTGOG and the combo is brutal. You not only keep the great prophet machine rolling to ensure enough votes for world religion, but you importantly grow your city very fast, you work all your specialists sooner, for more great people, for more faith, etc.

    Diplomacy is under serious revision so it might particularly affect OCC, the more dynamic it becomes the funnier OCC might be.
     
    Omen of Peace likes this.
  4. Favorius

    Favorius I am not a Chief!

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    Location:
    Constantinople
    I gave a try with LastSword's Khmer for Vox Populi on difficulty 6.

    Angkor the Magnificent
    World Wonders gain +3 :c5faith: Faith, :tourism: Tourism and :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points. The :c5capital: Capital gains a :c5citizen: Citizen for every World Wonder in the Empire. Farms with access to Fresh Water have a chance to reveal Rice.

    With goddess of beauty pantheon Stonehenge alone gives 7 faith Khmer. I was second to find religion, a few turns after India. Picked Council of Elders and Kong Miao beliefs. I was sharing continent with India, China and France and a few close city states. China and France did not pursue finding a religion, so I was freely spreading their cities and getting lots of science and production meanwhile.

    I started with tradition but before picking 4th tradition policy, I picked progress opener. I wanted to get extra science for pop growth. After finishing tradition I picked fealty opener for cheap missionaries then started statecraft. After statecraft I finished artistry. My initial luxuries were dispersed so statecraft helped me to get my monopoly to find corporation (Jewellers)

    I did too much converting, at one point it was 51 cities on a large map. All the production and science went to my capital. At the end I had 32 wonders and 74 pop capital. At turn 300 (standart) I was influential to everyone, waiting to get 2nd 3rd tier ideology tenet.

    My neighbour China and France were neither friendly nor hostile for most part. I always had full army to the force limit. Still, 20 turns before the end, China declared war. I maintained a defensive ring around my capital we killed each other for some 10 turns. My 16 out of 18 trade routes were pillaged tough. I was 9 techs ahead of China with bombers, machine guns, light tanks so they could not advance. They had tons of chu-ko-nu gatlings as well as navy so I could not advance too. We peaced out when CEP had 5 turns to finish.

    I strongly advice giving Khmer a try for OCC.
     
  5. Drakle

    Drakle Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    That honestly sounds borderline OP for OCC. One City is all about trying to grow the capital as tall as possible, wonder whoring as much as possible and compensating for a single cities disadvantage, of which faith is one of the biggest. Golden age points are nice, and the capital doesn't really produce any non-specialist unhappiness so going for golden ages is quite useful. And of course, Cultural Victory is the easiest one to aim for as an OCC and three extra tourism per wonder that early can really add up.

    5 faith per wonder is about what an average city, non-capital city would produce with a decently chosen patheon pre temples, and that is per wonder. In my recent game as Aztecs, I grabbed 2 of the Ancient wonders, and six of the Classical ones. Assuming similar wonder whoring, that would be a baseline of 40 faith just from the UA and pantheon, let alone the other faith sources, Palace, or extra from the wonders own effects or free great works. That is a lot from the classical era. Not sure how it compares to non-stop warring with God of War + Aztecs which is also OP, but I assume it is comparable.

    The only thing it doesn't really cover for, directly is supply cap, except indirectly through the population.

    Statecraft is totally a must for OCC, because of the strategic resources. Though I was unlucky and all the monopolies I got from city states were per tile bonuses, instead of empire wide stuff. Not sure if is worth mixing social policies as much as you did. Not really sure the progress opener is really worth finishing the Tradition policy as fast as possible or going for Artistry after Statecraft instead of Rationalism.
     
  6. Favorius

    Favorius I am not a Chief!

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    Location:
    Constantinople
    I was already 8-9 techs ahead of second (China) and 13-15 techs ahead of rest. Rationalism would be overkill because I was already dominating culturewise, so Artistry helped me to get CV earlier. Going for science victory while being next to a monstrous China was too risky, they would have too much time for closing the gap.
     

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