Odd upgrades

[ac196nataku]

I noticed that some UU's don't seem to upgrade logically. They seem to be due to the expansion packs (either new UU's or new units messing up upgrade tree). I know the civilopedia is no longer 100% accurate after the expansion packs, so I assume the expansions were a little "phoned in".

Zulu Impi (1.2.2) upgrades to Musketman (1.4.1).
I guess you might want to keep Impi's around if you use them with Horsemen, but Knights have one more point of defense than Impis.

Carthaginian Numidian Mercenary (2.3.1) upgrades to Pikeman (1.3.1).
This one makes no sense at all. Pikeman have one less point of offense and require iron. The Greek Hoplite (1.3.1) already skips over the Pikeman.

Persian Immortal (4.2.1) upgrades to Medieval Infantry (4.2.1).
This one probably just got lost in the cracks when Medieval Infantry were added to the game. The units are exactly identical except the latter costs 10 more shields.

At first glance I thought the Dutch Swiss Mercenary was identical to the Musketman, but I since realized the Musketman has one point more of offense. Personally, that's not worth doubling the cost, but there's precedent for terrible upgrades in the game.

Since I play with tweaked rules already, I decided to fix these upgrades in my game:
Impi to Pikeman.
Numidian Mercenary to Musketman.
Immortal to Guerilla (6.6.1).

Do these odd upgrade paths bother anyone else? My only concern is that maybe allowing Persia to build a 30 shield 4 attack unit for basically the entire ancient and middle ages is a large advantage.

 

[del62]

You could add in the Gallic Swordsman to MI, the Swordsmans movement being far better

 

[vmxa]

"ac196nataku
I noticed that some UU's don't seem to upgrade logically. They seem to be due to the expansion packs (either new UU's or new units messing up upgrade tree). I know the civilopedia is no longer 100% accurate after the expansion packs, so I assume the expansions were a little "phoned in"."

True for the most part.

"Zulu Impi (1.2.2) upgrades to Musketman (1.4.1).
I guess you might want to keep Impi's around if you use them with Horsemen, but Knights have one more point of defense than Impis."

They should upgrade to pike, not sure if you would want to, depends on the game. Knights are horse units, nothing to do with Impi. So I am fine with Muskets as that is about the time Impi are done.

Mostly will use for MP and not upgrade at that stage.

"Carthaginian Numidian Mercenary (2.3.1) upgrades to Pikeman (1.3.1).
This one makes no sense at all. Pikeman have one less point of offense and require iron. The Greek Hoplite (1.3.1) already skips over the Pikeman."

Probably just to allow it to upgrade later to musket and later units. Likely an artifact of the editor and engine.

"Persian Immortal (4.2.1) upgrades to Medieval Infantry (4.2.1).
This one probably just got lost in the cracks when Medieval Infantry were added to the game. The units are exactly identical except the latter costs 10 more shields."

Again an artifact. Probably not going to upgrade Immortals at all. Not going to upgrade MDI in most games.

"Do these odd upgrade paths bother anyone else? My only concern is that maybe allowing Persia to build a 30 shield 4 attack unit for basically the entire ancient and middle ages is a large advantage."

No problems with the way it is now. They are weak on defense, so not huge problem.

 

[ac196nataku]

You could add in the Gallic Swordsman to MI, the Swordsmans movement being far better

While that's true, I just considered that another example of a terrible upgrade. I'd definitely prefer the additional move instead of the additional attack point. However, I'm sure there are a few who disagree... ?

They should upgrade to pike, not sure if you would want to, depends on the game. Knights are horse units, nothing to do with Impi.

What I was trying to say is that I never foudn the Impi's extra movement point valuable. The only use I can think of is that you can make escort pairs with Horsemen (who have one less point of defense than the Impi).

Probably just to allow it to upgrade later to musket and later units.

I know, but the Hoplite upgrades directly to the Musketman, bypassing the inferior Pikeman. Why can't the Numidian do the same? It would give the much loathed UU the unique (pun) distinction of being an improvement over two regular units. Superior Pikeman without iron that are buildable after one tech? Admittedly, I have had some fun with this UU when I was stuck without resources (it's also superior to the Archer).

Anyway, take all my opinions with a grain of salt because I only play Regent (I stink).

 

[vmxa]

I have not played that much as the Zulu, but you can use Impi for many things early. Cheap spears, that are mobile. They can pillage and stay out of harms way, prior to horse against most civs.

As you say they can travel with two move units that cost more, so they will be put up first on defense. GW and Horses come to mind.

They can scout on any large map and barbs will not kill them as easy as scouts or warriors. On Regent barbs may not kill even warriors, but on they are no fun above emperor.

 

[ac196nataku]

I have not played that much as the Zulu, but you can use Impi for many things early. Cheap spears, that are mobile. They can pillage and stay out of harms way, prior to horse against most civs.

As you say they can travel with two move units that cost more, so they will be put up first on defense. GW and Horses come to mind.

They can scout on any large map and barbs will not kill them as easy as scouts or warriors. On Regent barbs may not kill even warriors, but on they are no fun above emperor.

They are not cheaper than regular spearmen if that is what you were implying.

I did not consider using them as fast pillaging units that are also resourceless. I try to avoid ultra early war, so the thought had not occurred to me. I guess every unit has its use. Zulu's are just not my kind of civ at all.

 

[Spoonwood]

Immortal to Guerilla (6.6.1)

Since the immortal upgrades to the medieval infantry and the medieval infranty upgrades to the guerilla, wouldn't an immortal upgrade to a guerrila already, just that you can also upgrade it to a medieval infantry pre-RP?

Agricultural and Industrial are leagues ahead of the other C3C traits.

I really have to disagree with this. For a histographic game I would agree. However, you can find some of the best HoF spaceship and diplomatic games with tribes as scientific and expansionist or commercial traits. Some of the best upper-level 20k games come as seafaring and either scientific or expansionist or religious. Some of the best 100k games come as religious and scientific. Fast domination and conquest games almost always do have one of these traits in the HoF tables, but that's more a function of the UUs used like the jaguar warrior, the mounted warrior, the gallic swordsman, the war chariot, or the rider. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the agricultural and industrious traits, sometimes just for having the Pyramids or the Palace as a pre-build early. But, I definitely think many other traits at about the same level in plenty of circumstances.

 

[vmxa]

I would say a strong case could be made that Commercial is useful for all types of strategies.

 

[ac196nataku]

Since the immortal upgrades to the medieval infantry and the medieval infranty upgrades to the guerilla, wouldn't an immortal upgrade to a guerrila already, just that you can also upgrade it to a medieval infantry pre-RP?

I'm not directly changing any upgrade paths, only stopping UUs from becoming obsolete/replaced when they logically shouldn't.

 

[Daeron]

Statwise, it's a little annoying. But the UU of a Civ represent a particular time when the civilisation peaked. This also translates into a very low shield cost in comparison to the quality. They're not supposed to have this advantage for long periods of time. The idea of the UU is that it is available during a specific timeframe, in my opinion you're breaking game balance if you make UU's available throughout.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Another lousy "upgrade" is the Berserk=>Guerilla path. You gain a grand total of 4 defense and lose the amphibious attack for a chunk of change.

 

[Spoonwood]

Another lousy "upgrade" is the Berserk=>Guerilla path. You gain a grand total of 4 defense and lose the amphibious attack for a chunk of change.

But you get a gun.

 

[katipunero]

Statwise, it's a little annoying. But the UU of a Civ represent a particular time when the civilisation peaked. This also translates into a very low shield cost in comparison to the quality. They're not supposed to have this advantage for long periods of time. The idea of the UU is that it is available during a specific timeframe, in my opinion you're breaking game balance if you make UU's available throughout.

this. civs with early UU's will certainly have a huge unfair advantage if their stats are carried over each upgrade where the generic unit's stats do not provide for more movement points for instance. besides, if you think about it, if you teach a spear wielding warrior to carry a mounted gun, he'd surely lose some mobility.