Of Rioting & Rebellion

[Dwarven Zerker]

Current consequences for rioting are far too lenient in Civ. I'd like to see riots actually destroy improvements (random decision if something is destroyed then randomly chose 1 improvement.) Right now losing 1 round of production doesn't hurt too much unless you're playing on the higher levels. I've found on Monarch it's just way to easy to deal with the loss of 1 rounds production.

Similarly, War Weariness is currently pretty weak as well. The most that happens is your city riots until you entertain them. I'd like to see a possibility for rebellion should war weariness increase to much where unhappiness exceeds 25%. The chance for spontaneous rebellion would be some factor for citizens and double the chance for foreign nationals (conquered from previous wars.)

Once a city has successfully rebelled it would return to the civ that has the most foreign nationals within the city. If there are no foreign nationals the city would spawn a new civ and unless quelled quickly (say within 5 or 10 turns) all citizens would automatically become citizens of the new civ.

 

[riadsala]

Rioting does destroy city imporvments?

No?

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Rioting does destroy city imporvments?

No?

Not that I've seen... yet. But then again I don't allow riots to carry on for too long.

 

[Bartleby]

If you leave it revolt for a couple of turns they will start to randomly destroy improvements. The fools will often destroy the marketplace that was keeping the rest of the population happy.

 

[sealman]

If you leave it revolt for a couple of turns they will start to randomly destroy improvements. The fools will often destroy the marketplace that was keeping the rest of the population happy.

Of course they destroy improvements that make others happy. Why should they be happy if I am not.

edit: but yes, they do destroy improvements after a few turns of rioting so if you fix it quickly, you will not lose anything.

 

[Dragonlord]

Actually, rioting starts randomly destroying improvements on the second consecutive turn.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

I sit corrected!

I guess I just fixed the rioting too quickly then. It would still be nice to see war weariness have the added detriment of rebellion though. That would force players to pay attention to their citizens as well as give increased challegnes for the warmongers to deal with. Not saying warmongering is bad mind you as I enjoy some good wars to complement my research, expansion and economy.

 

[Jon Shafer]

The whole rioting thing needs to be tossed, IMO (as it will be ).

There's basically a single threshold - you either riot and lose all production or everything just peachy-keen. This isn't how things worked historically and it basically rewards micromanagement. There should be a new system that doesn't require so much babysitting and that also better reflects how things worked historically.

 

[Neomega]

The whole rioting thing needs to be tossed, IMO (as it will be ).

There's basically a single threshold - you either riot and lose all production or everything just peachy-keen. This isn't how things worked historically and it basically rewards micromanagement. There should be a new system that doesn't require so much babysitting and that also better reflects how things worked historically.

I'll leave it up to the designers on how to do this... but I trust they will. Current level of rioting is just micromanagement.

 

[rysingsun]

the rioting system as it now stands rewards micromanagers. if rioting cities revolted it would even more reward micromanagers. i hate micromanaging but i like the idea that war weariness with or without riots could cause revolts.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

the rioting system as it now stands rewards micromanagers. if rioting cities revolted it would even more reward micromanagers. i hate micromanaging but i like the idea that war weariness with or without riots could cause revolts.

So what would you propose as a system to have riots & revolts that didn't require MM'g to prevent?

 

[Neomega]

So what would you propose as a system to have riots & revolts that didn't require MM'g to prevent?

That's tough. I would say it would be best to be on a RNG scale, from 1 - 99% chance. Based on a a large variety of factors. (police units, improvements, ethnicity, religion, war, strictness of laws, economy, etc...) This way, even the happiest of cities can have a riot. It's length would depend on chance.

Even LA erupted in a riot after Rodney King..... it's chances of rioting again in the next 100 years I would say would be about 10%, in the next year, I would say 1%. Same with most major American cities.

 

[Lozzy_Ozzy]

i hate war weariness! it's so annoying!

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

That's tough. I would say it would be best to be on a RNG scale, from 1 - 99% chance. Based on a a large variety of factors. (police units, improvements, ethnicity, religion, war, strictness of laws, economy, etc...) This way, even the happiest of cities can have a riot. It's length would depend on chance.

Even LA erupted in a riot after Rodney King..... it's chances of rioting again in the next 100 years I would say would be about 10%, in the next year, I would say 1%. Same with most major American cities.

And even more frustrating than MM'g something is waiting the computer controlling something for you without your choice, ie anarchy during government change. I've heard many more complaints about that than I have MM'g happiness in cities about to riot.

Currently, it's not hard to find those cities and fix the problem each turn. I rarely have a problem with rioting cities, as it is, and I don't have to search every city every turn (hint: search only cities about to grow) unless I'm at war and having troubles with WW.

 

[Neomega]

And even more frustrating than MM'g something is waiting the computer controlling something for you without your choice, ie anarchy during government change. I've heard many more complaints about that than I have MM'g happiness in cities about to riot.

Currently, it's not hard to find those cities and fix the problem each turn. I rarely have a problem with rioting cities, as it is, and I don't have to search every city every turn (hint: search only cities about to grow) unless I'm at war and having troubles with WW.

I like war weariness. And RNG would be applied after a host of other player controllable factors. Just like combat, you can control a lot in combat, bu tin the end, it comes down to RNG.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

I like war weariness. And RNG would be applied after a host of other player controllable factors. Just like combat, you can control a lot in combat, bu tin the end, it comes down to RNG.

I see what your saying now. It's more Player controls things as best he can and the RNG modifies the chance of rioting rather than the RNG controlling the chance that is modified by some player controlled things. If that's confusing let me know.

 

[Neomega]

I see what your saying now. It's more Player controls things as best he can and the RNG modifies the chance of rioting rather than the RNG controlling the chance that is modified by some player controlled things. If that's confusing let me know.

That's confusing.

If it is a tad out of the player's control, the player is less likely to micromanage.

But with the current model, all rioting can be avoided.... which is not realistic, and it depends on the players' willingness to micromanage... I am not a micromanagement hater actually, because control makes the game fun... but I hate managing things that could be taken care of automatically. For instance, in the current model, there could be a prompt before the end of your turn for cities that will riot, if that prompt existed, no riots would occur, unless a luxury supply were cut off during the AI's move.

In my lifetime, LA and Seattle have had riots, Venezuala had a general strike, and I would say the chance for a Bagdhad riot between now and next year hovers at about 30 percent. If things do not improve over 4 years, this 30% would rise to 80 or 90% (I forgot my highschool statistics lessons) but still may not happen.

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Basically I was saying that your proposal is that the player determines the base chance which is modified by the RNG whereas I was thinking you were saying that the base chance was determined by the RNG and modified by the player's actions.

 

[Neomega]

I was thinking perhaps more modifiers could be added to determine the degree of "riot", or "civil unrest"

So some buildings and governments would modify the chance, whilst other improvements or units or governments, would modify the severity. This way the percentage could be as low as 1%, and still be fairly harmelss.

There could be:

demonstration, which would add to the severity of the next civil unrest.

labor strike, which would hurt productivity

general strike, which would shut down production of food, trade, and production

riot, which would be the effects of a general strike, plus random damge to city, (building lost, gold lost, population lost, 10 turn "curse", which damges production, or economy)

insurgency: riot, with the possibility of escalating to revolution

revolution: garrison units battle revolutionaries, or winner takes the city.

And maybe a government like fascism would be immune to the first three, while democracy would be immune to the last two.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I guess I just fixed the rioting too quickly then. It would still be nice to see war weariness have the added detriment of rebellion though. That would force players to pay attention to their citizens as well as give increased challegnes for the warmongers to deal with. Not saying warmongering is bad mind you as I enjoy some good wars to complement my research, expansion and economy.

In Democracy, the people will revolt if you are at war for a long time.

And maybe a government like fascism would be immune to the first three, while democracy would be immune to the last two.

Oh, puh-LEEZ! I suppose you'd be in favor of keeping it immune to Propaganda, as well, since everyone knows that nobody could possibly wish to leave such a wholesome, benign government. If anything, they'd be more likely to split, since they're supposed to be represented.