Oh, Civ3.

[Quintillus]

One of the biggest problems WRT both realism and gameplay is the market. From the realism POV, luxuries function like any other good -- the law of diminishing returns holds. The market should not be giving huge bonuses for the 7th and 8th luxuries, but rather for the 1st and 2nd.

From the gameplay POV, markets make it even more worthwhile to take over a city that gives you another luxury. Not only does the new city give you more production, it reduces your opponent's production. Win-win, to be sure. Then the uber-sweetness, the new luxury makes 3-4 MORE people happy in ALL your metros? What were they thinking? A far better marketplace would probably make each lux give two happy faces, or maybe even the first lux gives 4 happys, lux 2 & 3 give three happy faces each, lux 4-6 give two happys each, lux 7-8 just get the one happy each, i.e., the last two treated as if there were no market at all. The marketplace would still be a good thing, and luxuries would still be a good thing, but not worth destroying another civ just to get access to the last couple lux. Helps out the AI, too, since at present, you'd have to be nuts to give the AI the last couple lux on which you have a monopoly, but under a diminishing returns model, there's no huge benefit to withhold trading. Further, the reduction in happies makes things like the colosseum and temples more worthwhile, even if you are doing conquest.

I don't mind the corruption model, though I think I'd have done something along the lines of making the courthouse and police station increasing the amount of useful production, not simply reducing the percent waste, only to have that completely overwhelmed anyway. There are few enough places where CH and PS are worth building, and after you add enough cities, waste/corruption means they are total waste in some of what used to be 'tweeners, too. IMO, the CH/PS are even more worthless than the colosseum, and that takes some doing. But a building that's simply a waste of good coding is better than a building that offends gameplay.

Good post. I like the idea about markets - it does make sense that people wouldn't be as thrilled about an 8th luxury as the 1st or 2nd. However, giving 4 happy faces for the first two and 3 for the next two would make happiness a very small problem indeed for most of the game after Currency was discovered (if you had 4 luxuries, the 14 happy faces would be enough to ensure you didn't have rioting even on Sid until after Sanitation, unless War Weariness became a factor, whereas you'd need 6 luxuries right now for the same guarantee - 12 happy faces to 6 happy citizens and 6 unhappy). Thus I like the idea of a market doubling the happy faces better. It also scales better if you wanted to have more than 8 luxuries in your Civ game.

I disagree about Courthouses/Police Stations though. A Courthouse almost always pays for itself (even if the coin goes to science, you're still getting 1 coin for 1 maintenance), and often does quite a bit better, especially if your city has a large population and has developed land. It may not always be better than scientist/taxman farms, but you can get decent production at times in large metropoli, too. Nothing compared to core cities, but actually somewhat useful. If you have Hoover Dam, all the better, as that makes factories more worthwhile and you might be able to get 15 or more shields fairly cheap. Smith's Trading Company helps makes this worth it, too, as a Courthouse + Marketplace + Bank may well pay for itself over time even if you have to pay to build them, especially considering the Marketplace's bonus happiness for your score. Police stations help with this, of course, although due to their expense and maintenance they are less often worth it than courthouses. It depends on the game, but CH/PS can make apparently worthless cities worth something. Even if they aren't worth it for those cities in a game, IMO they are absolutely essential for the not-quite-core cities, as they'll handily pay for themselves many times over in a city that ordinarily has 20% corruption, and are quick enough to build there, too (again, Courthouse > Police Station).

Communism is another case where Courthouses and Police Stations are well worth it. Normally Republic is the best government, but Communism with lots of Courthouses and Police Stations can be the best one in terms of sheer production (shields). My first great Communism game (as Russia, of course!), I switched from Republic to Communism without proper Courthousing around 1920, and my economy was absolutely trashed, and I was spending like 80% treasury just to break even. But by the end of the game I was down to about 50%, and my production was quite good. In later Communism games I learned to Courthouse before switching, and Communism was much more effective and quite productive, if not as good at science.

That Communism game was one of my "what a game"'s. Civ3 Vanilla, fell behind on tech with my horrible economy and had to make a huge Marine invasion (and this in Vanilla where Marines are awfully weak) to destroy the UN before England finished building it or they surely would have won. Not long afterwards I had to destroy their spaceship before they launched it, too, and that required a massive infantry invasion overland. Both times they had an overwhelming force relative to my invasions, but both were just successful enough to pull off their missions before being beat back. Finally I won I believe it was a Histographic victory by a good margin, but that's still one of the closest AI Diplomatic threats I've faced, and with a spaceship threat to boot!

I think there are still a number of people playing civ 3 for various reasons. Each new iteration of civilization gets me to upgrade my computer and the result is an even better civ 3 experience.
Turn times get faster and the game plays smooth even on huge map settings (my favorite).

I'm still looking forward to having faster Civ3 turns the next time I get a new computer. Ought to make superlarge scenarios like WWII Global quite a bit more enjoyable.

Quintillus, I agree 2D model is the best option for Civ games. When I talked about a Civ III with modern graphics I was thinking of a game on 2D style, not 3D, but with units and other things - like resources, seas, trees, etc. - looking better.

We really should start a petition for a "modern" Civ III and send it to Firaxis after having 10.000 signatures, maybe after one or two years. It could start here in this forum.

Let Firaxis know that the world wants Civ III again.

Awhile back in the C&C forum, either this year or last year, Steph, Ozymandias, and maybe one or two others were actually in contact with Firaxis looking into the possibility of doing a patch/expansion at no cost to Firaxis, which Firaxis could even sell as an expansion. They did get some replies, but eventually their contacts went quiet, and it doesn't look like Firaxis has any interest in Civ3-related projects at this point. Which is unfortunate, but there's not much any of us can do about it, unless someone is a multimillionaire and can buy Firaxis from TakeTwo .

The exact reason Firaxis went quiet isn't known, but there's quite a few speculative causes:

• Concern over potential Civ3 additions being good enough to sabotage Civ4 (and now Civ5) sales
• Paranoia over the trustworthiness of whoever would be working over it, as they could in theory release the source code despite legal agreements, which could sabotage Civ3 sales (it is still selling well enough digitally), and lead to derivative, competing products
• Concern over the legal implications of the potential modders being individuals and not companies
• Legal uncertainties or obligations in regards to Civ3's source code - perhaps Firaxis doesn't own all of it.
• Not wanting to let poor coding habits be seen by outsiders and reflect poorly on Firaxis (see Firaxis exotic programming). As far as I know, there are only two screenshots of Civ3 coding available to the public (both of which I've downloaded just in case they mysteriously disappear - see CFC's SOTD 100, and technically these are editor, not game, screenshots), and while we can't know if there is poor coding elsewhere, some Civ3 behavior does seem to imply counterintuitive programming (though this may not actually be the case).
• Not actually knowing what the current state of the code is. The last patch came out in 2004 IIRC, and Civ3Complete for Mac maybe in 2005, so it's possible Firaxis isn't entirely sure where the latest version of the code is. Hopefully not the case, but it can't be ruled out.

But it is good to see enthusiasm for this. Nothing is impossible, so maybe Firaxis will release Civ3's code someday. And they haven't totally forgotten Civ3 - Civ3 was the bonus in Direct2Drive's Civ5 presale, IMO the best bonus. So we'll see.

I find the editing structure of Civ3 to be much easier than civ4, since I am not a programmer, and have no idea how to work the civ4 one. You ever seen the riflemen in civ4? They look like they're holding giant chocolate bars.

I find Civ3's editing structure much easier and I am a programmer!

 

[Meteor Man]

Hell of a post. I agree.

Awhile back in the C&C forum, either this year or last year, Steph, Ozymandias, and maybe one or two others were actually in contact with Firaxis looking into the possibility of doing a patch/expansion at no cost to Firaxis, which Firaxis could even sell as an expansion. They did get some replies, but eventually their contacts went quiet, and it doesn't look like Firaxis has any interest in Civ3-related projects at this point.

That is too bad.

Which is unfortunate, but there's not much any of us can do about it, unless someone is a multimillionaire and can buy Firaxis from TakeTwo .:

Which is actually more likely than you'd think it would be.

 

[Kyriakos]

Civ3 is not quite dead yet

 

[Skullsplitter]

I disagree about Courthouses/Police Stations though. A Courthouse almost always pays for itself (even if the coin goes to science, you're still getting 1 coin for 1 maintenance), and often does quite a bit better, especially if your city has a large population and has developed land.

Oh, that's true until you go over about 6x optimal number of cities. If I'm going to hold at 2x, and I don't already have conquest more or less bagged, yeah, even the most remote cities get the CH & PS, and its always a bargain. Around 4x, I'm not sure the remote ones pay the opportunity cost. Last week I played a game and hit, um, 12x. The CH & PS were useful in the first ring around the capitol and FP. The second ring they mostly broke even at best, after that, totally worthless.

 

[Skullsplitter]

That Communism game was one of my "what a game"'s. Civ3 Vanilla, fell behind on tech with my horrible economy and had to make a huge Marine invasion (and this in Vanilla where Marines are awfully weak) to destroy the UN before England finished building it or they surely would have won. Not long afterwards I had to destroy their spaceship before they launched it, too, and that required a massive infantry invasion overland. Both times they had an overwhelming force relative to my invasions, but both were just successful enough to pull off their missions before being beat back. Finally I won I believe it was a Histographic victory by a good margin, but that's still one of the closest AI Diplomatic threats I've faced, and with a spaceship threat to boot!

Those are the kind of tales that keep me playing Civ3, trying something different just to see what happens.

 

[Wardog]

But it is good to see enthusiasm for this. Nothing is impossible, so maybe Firaxis will release Civ3's code someday. And they haven't totally forgotten Civ3 - Civ3 was the bonus in Direct2Drive's Civ5 presale, IMO the best bonus. So we'll see.

True.

And two or three players asking for a "new Civ III" by email is one thing. A petition with 15.000 signatures is another thing, completely different, that could make Firaxis start thinking about the idea of a Civ III "remake" (by the way, if I'm not wrong they did the same with "Pirates!", right?) or, at least, releasing III code.

 

[darski]

I don't agree about the luxuries. They all do different things. You can't say that it is more important (worth more) to be able to make jewelry/crochet hooks than it is to have spices for what you cook. does colour not play a big part in what you do with your life? would you be happy if you had nothing but cotton to wear for everything? Diminishing returns would apply to your 8th colour choice perhaps but not to colour over fabric choices.

Just saying...

 

[Xong]

supply lines would be good. Now i'll have to think twice about sending my infantry deep into enemy territory having to worry about its food, ammunition stretching too far. just for realism.

 

[Skullsplitter]

Darski, this is way off-topic, but do you have a version of your 31 flavors colors for vanilla?

 

[Meteor Man]

If it's off topic, that's what private messages are for.

Supply lines would stink. Sure the realism, but who wants to deal with that?

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Supply lines would stink. Sure the realism, but who wants to deal with that?

*Raises Hand* Granted, it would depend on how they're implemented.

 

[SewerStarFish]

I still play Civ III. My very first combat had a barbarian attack my warrior and he promoted to veteren with his "Yarrrgh". I loved it so much over Civ II. I still will pop it in and run through the Conquest.

Yarrrgh!

 

[TheOverseer714]

Darski, this is way off-topic, but do you have a version of your 31 flavors colors for vanilla?

I think I downloaded it once, if she has lost it.

 

[darski]

Darski, this is way off-topic, but do you have a version of your 31 flavors colors for vanilla?

yep...

View attachment 31 colours.zip

Let me know if it works. I have irfanview and the files are set for that but any pcx reader should work. I used this in Vanilla but that was ages ago.

You can change colours around if you want to. It's not that hard.

 

[Kyriakos]

I noticed that this last week we had a 25% increase in people who go to the civ3 creation forum. Perhaps it is the better level of work being produced, or the dissapointment with civ5, but it is a nice change

 

[Meteor Man]

I still play Civ III. My very first combat had a barbarian attack my warrior and he promoted to veteren with his "Yarrrgh". I loved it so much over Civ II. I still will pop it in and run through the Conquest.

Yarrrgh!

That's a great memory. Treasure that 'till your last.

 

[Elephantium]

For my own part, CCM and the HOF 3 WW2 mod have pulled me into the civ3 creation forum - I've seldom even looked in there otherwise.

 

[darski]

I love the C&C forum. i am always looking for a new city style or even an interesting territory graphic.

The stuff that has been created here is really astonishing. There are more brains here than in all the Intelligence agencies in the world.

 

[drpolarbear]

Our reasons for sticking with Civ3 rather than moving on to Civ4 are indeed very good ones. Here are some of mine.

1) Combat. Civ4 is void of animation. There are no diminishing health bars on either side of the battle. You don't see each "round" of combat being won by one side or the other until one side is defeated or retreats. What fun is that? I guess civ4 did this to speed up the game but it sacrifices unit action in favor of dice rolling/coin flipping. Boooo!!!

2) Overpowering culture. This is just plain ridiculous. It is so far fetched it makes me sick. In what situation does a collection libraries, mueseums, art galleries, buildings of religious worship, and other "cultural" improvements overtake standing armies? The culture in civ3 is already unrealistic enough, but at least it can't steal workable tiles from one civ if they aren't workable for the other civ.

3) The Enviromentalism civic. Are you serious? This liberal pansy tree hugging "idea" is a complete load of crap. Did Michael Moore put this in the game? How many people do you know are "happier" with their electric car? If their country was under attack do you think they would prefer their military have "electric" tanks, warships, and aircraft? I don't think so. Don't misunderstand I'm not against development of clean energy, but the notion that people are made "happy" by it is ludicrous.

Of course there's more, but I'll stop here. I played civ4 for 3 weeks and quit, decided to go back to Civ3 because of these other reasons.

Never played civ4 but people are happier with a clean enviroment as oppossed to a dirty one.

 

[Quintillus]

I love the C&C forum. i am always looking for a new city style or even an interesting territory graphic.

The stuff that has been created here is really astonishing. There are more brains here than in all the Intelligence agencies in the world.

, maybe we can take over the world and make Thunderfall dictator of the world. Just don't tell anyone we're going to.