Omissions in "Odds and Ends"?

[Blkbird]

I was completely caught by surprise that you can't build cities on jungle tiles, because I read the "RFC Concepts" in the Civilopedia very throughly before I started the game, but this issue isn't mentioned there - while it obviously should be.

Now I have to throw away hours of work on my previous settlement plan, and I'm wondering what other important facts are omitted in the "Odds and Ends" section.

 

[Úmarth]

Funnily enough I just read through the RFC concepts bit in the Civilopedia (never noticed it before ) and so I can say that it clearly states that units cannot enter jungles and they cannot be chopped until Biology is researched. In fact it's the very first point under Odds and Ends in fact. Since you need to both enter the jungle with a settler and chop it down to build a city, I would have thought it was pretty obvious you can't build cities there (not until you research Biology anyway).

And I'm sure you can salvage some of those "hours" of "work" you lost if you try hard enough.

- Jungles are impassable by most units and cannot be chopped until Biology.

 

[Blkbird]

Funnily enough I just read through the RFC concepts bit in the Civilopedia (never noticed it before ) and so I can say that it clearly states that units cannot enter jungles and they cannot be chopped until Biology is researched. In fact it's the very first point under Odds and Ends in fact. Since you need to both enter the jungle with a settler and chop it down to build a city, I would have thought it was pretty obvious you can't build cities there (not until you research Biology anyway).

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts:

First, a settler *can* in fact enter a jungle in RFC - as my settlers have repeatedly done. Settlers, workers, scouts and a few other units may enter jungles with no problem, while the "Odds and Ends" section correctly states that jungle cannot be entered by "most units". BTW, how do you think you could chop down a jungle - once Biology has been researched, that is - if workers could not enter there first?

Second, you don't need to chop down a forest or a jungle to build a city - at least not in vanilla Civ4. I don't know where you've got that idea from.

 

[Úmarth]

I never said workers couldn't enter jungle, just that settlers couldn't. Fair enough, I was wrong about that. I never tried it.

However, of course you have to remove the forest. It's done automatically when you found the city. When you mouse over a city it doesn't say "Forest" does it?

 

[wr4th]

i dont know if its in the pedia but it's the same topic. You can not found cities on desert (except coast and fresh water) and tundra (except coast) and snow. all to be found in CIV4TerrainInfos.xml

 

[Panopticon]

Without meaning to be flippant, learning to adapt to surprises will make you a better Civ player than spending hours planning anything.

 

[Talkie_Toaster]

Hey, let's not be mean now

I think it should be in the 'pedia, regardless of our opinion of his...shall we say thorough...playing techniques

 

[Hegix]

Actually, if you check the terrain entries in the pedia, it's all listed there

 

[Blkbird]

However, of course you have to remove the forest. It's done automatically when you found the city. When you mouse over a city it doesn't say "Forest" does it?

That's right. But in RFC, workers can build plantations in jungle tiles before Biology - the jungle will then be cleared, again before Biology. So it's not illogical to except the settlers to be able to do the same.

 

[Blkbird]

Actually, if you check the terrain entries in the pedia, it's all listed there

I know, I founded that entry afterwards. That how I knew it was a feature and not a bug. But don't you think it'd be extremely unreasonable to expect everybody starting with RFC to re-read the whole Civilopedia first and scan all entries for difference to the vanilla game? The very purpose of the section "RFC Concepts" is to explain the difference, which it does very well in same area, not so much in others. For instance, I still don't know under what conditions mercenaries can be hired, and how the whole process looks like.

 

[Walka]

But in RFC, workers can build plantations in jungle tiles before Biology - the jungle will then be cleared, again before Biology. So it's not illogical to except the settlers to be able to do the same.

Uh, I'm not sure if building the plantation actually clears it... I believe I recall mousing over one and still seeing jungle. That's how it works with other improvements before biology: I regularly see mines in Maya and India in jungles. So I don't believe building improvements (such as a city is) actually does cut down the jungle.

 

[Blkbird]

Uh, I'm not sure if building the plantation actually clears it...

I am. While camps do not clear forests and jungles, plantations do - both in vanilla and RFC. In fact, after the plantations are built, my warriors can finally go into the tiles - a clear indication that the jungles are cleared.

 

[jessiecat]

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts:

First, a settler *can* in fact enter a jungle in RFC - as my settlers have repeatedly done. Settlers, workers, scouts and a few other units may enter jungles with no problem, while the "Odds and Ends" section correctly states that jungle cannot be entered by "most units". BTW, how do you think you could chop down a jungle - once Biology has been researched, that is - if workers could not enter there first?

Second, you don't need to chop down a forest or a jungle to build a city - at least not in vanilla Civ4. I don't know where you've got that idea from.

In fact, you'r wrong and you're right.
In RFC BTS, a settler can enter a jungle but cannot build a city on a jungle
square until the jungle has been cleared. I know cause i've just tried it.
Playing as the Spanish yesterday, I tried to found Panama to gain access
to the Pacific. I couldn't do it. That annoys me too, but that's the truth.

 

[Úmarth]

You can just build a fort there you know.

 

[kairob]

You can send ships through forts?

 

[jessiecat]

You can just build a fort there you know.

Ya, I know. But I wanted a city there as base and to encroach on the
Inca area of control. Usually when I do that, they offer to be my vassal.
So I landed a worker who cleared the jungle. Then I built Panama and
a couple of turns later they were my vassal. But thanks anyway!

 

[Úmarth]

You can send ships through forts?

Yep.

I think it works if you put two next to each other too (but not three).

 

[Panopticon]

Not three, but you can build a city between two and use that as a canal.

In fact, in RFC, since you can build cities closer together, you can theoretically build a canal between any two coasts surrounding a body of land, no matter how wide!

 

[kairob]

Nice, that will stop me cramping cities into scandanavia so I don't need open borders with germany

Could the ability to have ships and units on the same tile, be used to create a 'land bridge' between denmark and scandanavia, or spain and africa, to show the ease in which armies can cross these close points (but still have the amphibius attack penalty)?

 

[Úmarth]

Not three, but you can build a city between two and use that as a canal.

In fact, in RFC, since you can build cities closer together, you can theoretically build a canal between any two coasts surrounding a body of land, no matter how wide!

...

I am totally making a trans-Eurasian canal with Worldbuilder.