On AIs, jungles, research, and resources

[Mithrus]

I am a bit perplexed that it seems most AIs will NEVER learn sanitation to get rid of jungles, even though they have numerous resources hidden in jungles in their cities. I think the AI should weight learning bronzeworking/sanitation stronger than typicial if they have resources that cannot be utilized before learning those techs. Getting bronzeworking to gain access to silk (for non-elven folks) seems like a no-brainer to me, since the temporary delay (assuming another tech is desired asap) will pay for itself over time.

After all, if you had a city with 2 ancient temples, 2 gems, and bananas, all in jungles, wouldn't you consider making Sanitation a fairly early tech to get? Also, when the AI civ finally does get sanitation (as evidenced via trade or them finally working a tile), they invariably ONLY remove jungles with resources. I would think the AI would want to put some tile improvement on every workable tile, and if necessary build enough workers to do so.

 

[felwar]

This is very true. While the AI has improved a lot when it comes to combat, I feel it is currently broken from the builder side of things. No use of sea resources, a huge delay in even researching bronzeworking, and sanitation is even further removed. It seems like other than the specific civiliations that beeline for certain techs, most follow the exact same path without regard to the local resources. Since the loss of the free tech, the AI is especially overvalueing writing in my opinion.

My experience at every level of the game is that I always, without fail, beat the AI to bronzeworking and anything that stems from it. The only other civ that seems to value anything on the crafting tree is the Luchuirp, and that's on the construction side of things.

 

[BCalchet]

Regular AI strategy:
1. Beeline to alchemy.
2. Build Typhoid Mary.
3. Get crushed since it only has warriors and Typhoid Mary.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Regular AI strategy:
1. Beeline to alchemy.
2. Build Typhoid Mary.
3. Get crushed since it only has warriors and Typhoid Mary.

Heh... true, but I wonder if this hasn't been changed. My current game with 5 AIs, I didnt' see Mary until quite late. Flauros built her after I'd already killed Hemah, Saverious, and Losha Valas (twice).
It was funny, when she came for me she was diseased, plagued, mutated, and crazed. Poor thing.

 

[Endovior]

I didn't see Mary that often when I first started playing, but she's been coming up earlier and earlier now. Most recently, I got the announcement on turn 76!

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Regular AI strategy:
1. Beeline to alchemy.
2. Build Typhoid Mary.
3. Get crushed since it only has warriors and Typhoid Mary.

-or-

3. Get crushed since it missed Typhoid Mary and has only warriors... (maybe hunters, if it's lucky)

 

[DieselBiscuit]

Regular AI strategy:
1. Beeline to alchemy.
2. Build Typhoid Mary.
3. Get crushed since it only has warriors and Typhoid Mary.

Alternative:

1. Beeline to every single magic branch, priority on Elementalism to get Eternal Flame.
2. Either
- A. Buff Warriors with available magic or
- B. Build 2-5 adepts per city
3. Watch with amazement as their forces are torn to shreds by axemen or worse.
4. Prosper?

I suggest toning down the focus on magic techs until the AI can handle targeted spellcasting.

 

[Mithrus]

Or even better, upgrade/build at least X number of the best units they can of each type (melee/recon/magic/divine) per city, with Y extra for use in conquering/border patrol. I think it's silly that the AI feels 2 warriors is enough defense when I have tier 3 melees, and they have at least tier 2. Each city should have a minimum quota of garrison based on how close it is to the "border". If that isn't programatically feasible, then a fixed number per city would still be a vast improvement.

 

[Kael]

Alternative:

1. Beeline to every single magic branch, priority on Elementalism to get Eternal Flame.
2. Either
- A. Buff Warriors with available magic or
- B. Build 2-5 adepts per city
3. Watch with amazement as their forces are torn to shreds by axemen or worse.
4. Prosper?

I suggest toning down the focus on magic techs until the AI can handle targeted spellcasting.

There are only 16 out of 118 abilities that are targeted, and therefor the AI can't use them. Although I would love to get those 16 added as well, its only about 7% of the spells.

 

[Oldfrt]

It is a shame how the AI sufferes...

... I think I saw dear old Mary appearing at almost the same time as Orthus... so the AI sure does love her!

The AI's combat is getting better in that it now groups units, but it still has the habit of lettings its heros wander around on their own until they can be picked off.... talk about free experience!

It also seems very keen on invading with low strength units..... adepts & acolytes... which is sad when your longbowmen are sitting in your cities... again, free promotions!

I noticed that it builds warships, but doesnt seem to know the advantage of transporting troops - I have twiced had cities bombarded (by ships) to 0%, weakly held, that would have been ripe for the AI to transport a couple of units to and assault, but the AI always prefers to walk.... and this with me not even having ANY ships....

I know this is all primarily vanilla problems and am grateful for the work that has gone on already with regards to the AI battlemanagement, but it is frustrating!

 

[DieselBiscuit]

There are only 16 out of 118 abilities that are targeted, and therefor the AI can't use them. Although I would love to get those 16 added as well, its only about 7% of the spells.

Agreed. I am very impressed with the work done and although I can see how my comment could be taken as an insult towards the AIs ability to use spells in general, that's far from how it was meant.

However there's a fair amount of work left until the AI effectively/intelligently uses spells other than buffs (even Haste, best spell ever IMO, is a lacking in execution) but having basic AI as a part of my comp. science degree I'm very much aware of the difficulties. I am currently working on modding some basic stuff, like a new religion founding system, in the SDK, but when I get a little general insight in the mechanics behind the scenes, my ambitions are to try to make the AI fling some nasty stuff at me. If I succeed to any degree, I'd be happy to share the results, although I'm pretty sure the team is way, way ahead of me atm.

 

[Gamestation]

The AI definitely has the crappiest naval warfare ability now more so than ever before. It knows that it could build ships and actually stockpiles a whole bunch of ships in their cities but they don't load anything on to them! They don't even use them to try and prevent my much smaller fleet of ships from coming in and landing what could be the end of them! Then the AI thinks that it could declare war on me because it has way more units than me, only to send one horseman after me because I'm on another continent away from them! Truly absurd, they even leave cities on little tiny islands with no garrison at all!

 

[katika]

In one game Hyborem declared war on me by sending a dragonship into my territory and retreating it. He never sent any ground units despite having a navy. I think part of the problem is that the AI always seems to have the bucaneer and combat I (from apprenticeship, I believe) and never seems to upgrade the cargo capacity.

 

[hadrian11]

Yes, the AI I've encountered seems to be having trouble with ships because it always chooses the +1 strength mod, which leaves it with little cargo space. It was sending settlers out with any kind of escort because there was no room on the ships.

On the previous AI tech comments, I haven't created typhoid mary even once in any of my last 10 games or so because at least 1 AI will beeline straight for alchemy (and usually more than 1... they don't have trade yet, so that means they both must have teched up to alchemy), even though there were plenty of more useful techs that they could have researched in the same amount of time.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

It is a shame how the AI sufferes...

... I think I saw dear old Mary appearing at almost the same time as Orthus... so the AI sure does love her!

The AI's combat is getting better in that it now groups units, but it still has the habit of lettings its heros wander around on their own until they can be picked off.... talk about free experience!

It also seems very keen on invading with low strength units..... adepts & acolytes... which is sad when your longbowmen are sitting in your cities... again, free promotions!

I noticed that it builds warships, but doesnt seem to know the advantage of transporting troops - I have twiced had cities bombarded (by ships) to 0%, weakly held, that would have been ripe for the AI to transport a couple of units to and assault, but the AI always prefers to walk.... and this with me not even having ANY ships....

I know this is all primarily vanilla problems and am grateful for the work that has gone on already with regards to the AI battlemanagement, but it is frustrating!

I agree with your overall sentiment, but I want to reassure you on the matter of troops transports. I have been successfully surprised by invasions out of the FoW a few times. I've had some big sea battles pre 0.16, unfortunately most of them AI ships vs my fireballs.

But in one game Sidar hit me with a surprise declaration of war + an amphibious invasion aimed at Aecheron's old city and a vital economic center. Fortunately it ws 2-3 tiles inland and my scratch defensive force managed to contain the beachhead. Then I sent out Djiin across the ocean (3 turns as Calabim) to scout for a fresh invasion wave. Well, Sidar launched 3 full scale invasions and one half-scale landing during that war. I was ready for the follow=up waves. Yet despite my patrols one Sidar wave loomed out of the FoW, hammered then razed my oldest non-capitol city on the coast. Damn AI had sent its ships south then east then north instead of directly towards my shores. So they avoided my Djiin patrols and stung me dearly. I was quite impressed.

 

[Oldfrt]

But in one game Sidar hit me with a surprise declaration of war + an amphibious invasion aimed at Aecheron's old city and a vital economic center. Fortunately it ws 2-3 tiles inland and my scratch defensive force managed to contain the beachhead. Then I sent out Djiin across the ocean (3 turns as Calabim) to scout for a fresh invasion wave. Well, Sidar launched 3 full scale invasions and one half-scale landing during that war. I was ready for the follow=up waves. Yet despite my patrols one Sidar wave loomed out of the FoW, hammered then razed my oldest non-capitol city on the coast. Damn AI had sent its ships south then east then north instead of directly towards my shores. So they avoided my Djiin patrols and stung me dearly. I was quite impressed.

Am glad it does do that... I was just suprised (and a little dissapointed) that with its huge naval supremacy my then ally, when deciding to back-stab me, not only failed to use its ships for anything but bombarding, but also decided to invade my country, whilst my army was away on, ahm, manoveres on the other side of the continent with a few weak units and promptly started pillaging....

... If I had been him, I could have taken half a dozen cities including my capital in the first assault... (talk about leaving myself vunerable!).

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Am glad it does do that... I was just suprised (and a little dissapointed) that with its huge naval supremacy my then ally, when deciding to back-stab me, not only failed to use its ships for anything but bombarding, but also decided to invade my country, whilst my army was away on, ahm, manoveres on the other side of the continent with a few weak units and promptly started pillaging....

... If I had been him, I could have taken half a dozen cities including my capital in the first assault... (talk about leaving myself vunerable!).

Yeah, it is still possible to leave yourself thinly garrisoned - really thinly garrisoned (in some games I have expanded so fast some cities are entirely undefended) - and almost always you can get away with it. If a way is found to make the AI ruthless towards token garrisons, that development alone would probably send the challenge level way up.

 

[Ennet]

About the builderish aspects of the AI it would be worth to check out Blake's AI mod. Some of the improvements he made were actually included in the latest warlords patch.

His project thread here on CFC:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191685

 

[BeefontheBone]

Those were checked in to FfH several versions ago...