QES
Court Jester
Alright, as I'm sure many of you have noticed. I didnt make a poll.
I know. I was surprized too.
Anyway, this thread IS about my proposal for religious late game effects outside of the "appocolyptic spells". A great deal of this Idea is about flavor, so its flavor-inspired. However, I've a respect for gameplay, which is where you people come in. Id like to know if you think its completely bonkers, or merely insane.
The Idea:
Specially, I would like to see a metamorphasis in the mid/late game that is accessed through technologies and the like. In this, it would be YET MORE specialization. In fact, my mind has it played out in an "evolution" sort of feel.
Right now, religions provide special units, special buildings, and the like.
What I would LOVE, is to see (in mid/late game) the entirety of a TRULY devoted civilization, start metamorphing into the Paragon of that religion.
Imagine followers of FOL. Right now they get Archers of the Leeves, the appropriate disciple units. etc. But their primary forces/buildings/cities are all of their origional civ. My idea would be that each religion would have the potential to "transcend" their normal civ state, and enter a "paragon" state.
Our FOL friends would slowly and surely BECOME the fey creatures they admire. Normal melee troops would begin being replaced by (Very) Fey creatuers of like disposition - Fairies, Pixies, Leprachauns(sp?), Faun, Satyr, and even Ents. Slowly the buildings would also change, as well as the look of their territory. THe idea would be to "blend them in" to the world. THe citizens themselves would eventually start looking and behaving differently.
The substanitive difference between my idea and normal "religious zealotry" is that where as - as it is now, civs 'worship the other' and are still seperate, they've access to the mythological and such, but are not themselves part OF that divine other. This "paragon" religious implmentation would actually change the civ into what they worshiped.
FOL - To Fey
Runes - To Gems and Gold and Rock creatures
OO - To Illithid/Cathulu types
Order - To Angels and Archangels
Veil - To deamons and Devils
Cult - To...well, I'm uncertain if this should be paragonized. But maybe, and if it was - Dragons
Essentially 6 quasi-civilizations would be carved out for access in the late game, one could "become them". I wouldnt expect this implmented for a long time, but it strikes me as VERY DROOL WORTHY.
I also would anticipate that each religion would have its own unique victory condition - only accessible through "Paragon Religion".
Paragon Religion would be a civic in, <gasp>, the religion thread. Every unit and building would be TIED to that civic option. So once its chosen, it should be devistatingly detrimental (to be redudant) to switch from it. (AI's should NEvER switch from it, if they decide to take it). Also, i Feel that the ownership of the Holy city is required to select it, but not necessarily to keep it (if you lose your holy city for example). The Holy City would become in effect a new capital. It'd be granted bonuses etc, the loss of it would be very bad indeed. Also, I think that ONLY one civ may be a paragon for each religion per game. So even if you capture a holy city from a paragon civ, you cannot become the paragon of that religion, someone already has.
Also, a LARGE quantity of Religion-specific technologies would become available to you and only you. Reseraching these would make you MORE.."Paragony" but it would neglect other techs, and since religious technologies arnt tradeable, your losing trade value as well. But these technologies would provide - in theory - direct benefits as well as access benefits. I imagine that the Fey would have techs that simply added 1 Happiness or 1 Healthiness to each city, merely for its aquiring it. This would be more "late game" tech, but earlier techs might include different improvment options.
Breaking it down:
Risk Vs Reward. Gain vs Loss.
Over all in civ, there should be net gain. But nothing should be free as to continue balance. I think we can all agree that the flavor is pretty juicy, but if a paragon civ became unstoppable, or unplayable, it'd ruin the flavor fast. Therefore the following i recomend.
Benefits:
Superior Improvements: Each Religion would gain a benefit in its SPECIFIC specialization across the board for most every new improvment they gained access to. For example, if "Flesh Farms" became accessable for the Ashen vale, Farms would then produce Beakers in addition to their normal production. A "Dream Catcher Windmill" Would aslo likely produce beakers. Improvements would/should be the most notable feature of a paragon civ.
Special Units: Each Paragon civ would have a couple new "type" of units (think elven dwarven, orc stuff). These would NEVER have anti-counter promotions for them. Also, some unique ability would be drapped over all of them, regardless of type. For example, The Axeman Equivilant of the Fey might be the Faun. But all Fey units have woodsman I and II, and invisability. Each religion would have its own unique "taste".
Special Buildings: These would replace the older buildings, and function slightly more superior depending on the religion. Ashenvale libraries for example, might provide more % bonus than normal. All in all, the appropriate buildings that would be influence would be wholey superior to the origionals.
Price:
Ah yes, the "rub" as it were. Here's the thing. My argument is that the "Paragon" civic should either emulate, or replace "theocracy". That means no more non-state religious spread. It would also, instantly eliminate the ability to produce any non-religious based unit, building, or improvement (with the exception of nodes). This would mean, essentially, that youd be "starting over" with your civ. Because even if you could once build maceman - if you switched over to a paragon civic, your going to be producing the "worst" of that particular religions units first. And since you cannot "tech up" in that religion until you switch, its a long road to temporary. THis, i believe is a very high and risky price. But considering the potential gains from superior improvements and buildings and units. It'd be an interesting tactic for gameplay. I'm also thinking it should cause longer than normal anarchy.
The idea here is that the switch to a paragon religious civilization, would hurt - ALOT at first. But, if it survived the switch, when it ratcheded up the personal tech tree, and gained access to superior same tier units and equipment. The hurt, would effectively be on.
As I see it, a Paragon unit would be equal to one tier higher than its replacement in power. A paragon axeman replacement, would be as potentially powerful as a mace man. THis would put paragon t4 units as the most powerful in the game (being a veritable t5).
The Other downside. The cesation of all trade with non-similar religious civs. They either share your religion as a STATE religion, or, no trade. Peace is still an option, but no trade, no trade from city to city, no tech trade, nothing. This will generally degrade relations and lead to a lot of "fun times" to be had by all.
Side-Note: Agnostic Civs would have to have access to some private end-game technologies to keep them on par with the potential of paragon civilizations.
Second Side-Note: Ashen Veil and The Order paragon civs would be instantaniously and permantely at war with any civ identifing their opposite as a state-religion (War wearyness from being at war with the antithical civ would be eliminated - other wars would function normally).
OK people, Hack away, and add. But bare in mind its supposed to be "Evolution" and Intergration into an ALREADY fantastic system.
-Qes
I know. I was surprized too.
Anyway, this thread IS about my proposal for religious late game effects outside of the "appocolyptic spells". A great deal of this Idea is about flavor, so its flavor-inspired. However, I've a respect for gameplay, which is where you people come in. Id like to know if you think its completely bonkers, or merely insane.
The Idea:
Specially, I would like to see a metamorphasis in the mid/late game that is accessed through technologies and the like. In this, it would be YET MORE specialization. In fact, my mind has it played out in an "evolution" sort of feel.
Right now, religions provide special units, special buildings, and the like.
What I would LOVE, is to see (in mid/late game) the entirety of a TRULY devoted civilization, start metamorphing into the Paragon of that religion.
Imagine followers of FOL. Right now they get Archers of the Leeves, the appropriate disciple units. etc. But their primary forces/buildings/cities are all of their origional civ. My idea would be that each religion would have the potential to "transcend" their normal civ state, and enter a "paragon" state.
Our FOL friends would slowly and surely BECOME the fey creatures they admire. Normal melee troops would begin being replaced by (Very) Fey creatuers of like disposition - Fairies, Pixies, Leprachauns(sp?), Faun, Satyr, and even Ents. Slowly the buildings would also change, as well as the look of their territory. THe idea would be to "blend them in" to the world. THe citizens themselves would eventually start looking and behaving differently.
The substanitive difference between my idea and normal "religious zealotry" is that where as - as it is now, civs 'worship the other' and are still seperate, they've access to the mythological and such, but are not themselves part OF that divine other. This "paragon" religious implmentation would actually change the civ into what they worshiped.
FOL - To Fey
Runes - To Gems and Gold and Rock creatures
OO - To Illithid/Cathulu types
Order - To Angels and Archangels
Veil - To deamons and Devils
Cult - To...well, I'm uncertain if this should be paragonized. But maybe, and if it was - Dragons
Essentially 6 quasi-civilizations would be carved out for access in the late game, one could "become them". I wouldnt expect this implmented for a long time, but it strikes me as VERY DROOL WORTHY.
I also would anticipate that each religion would have its own unique victory condition - only accessible through "Paragon Religion".
Paragon Religion would be a civic in, <gasp>, the religion thread. Every unit and building would be TIED to that civic option. So once its chosen, it should be devistatingly detrimental (to be redudant) to switch from it. (AI's should NEvER switch from it, if they decide to take it). Also, i Feel that the ownership of the Holy city is required to select it, but not necessarily to keep it (if you lose your holy city for example). The Holy City would become in effect a new capital. It'd be granted bonuses etc, the loss of it would be very bad indeed. Also, I think that ONLY one civ may be a paragon for each religion per game. So even if you capture a holy city from a paragon civ, you cannot become the paragon of that religion, someone already has.
Also, a LARGE quantity of Religion-specific technologies would become available to you and only you. Reseraching these would make you MORE.."Paragony" but it would neglect other techs, and since religious technologies arnt tradeable, your losing trade value as well. But these technologies would provide - in theory - direct benefits as well as access benefits. I imagine that the Fey would have techs that simply added 1 Happiness or 1 Healthiness to each city, merely for its aquiring it. This would be more "late game" tech, but earlier techs might include different improvment options.
Breaking it down:
Risk Vs Reward. Gain vs Loss.
Over all in civ, there should be net gain. But nothing should be free as to continue balance. I think we can all agree that the flavor is pretty juicy, but if a paragon civ became unstoppable, or unplayable, it'd ruin the flavor fast. Therefore the following i recomend.
Benefits:
Superior Improvements: Each Religion would gain a benefit in its SPECIFIC specialization across the board for most every new improvment they gained access to. For example, if "Flesh Farms" became accessable for the Ashen vale, Farms would then produce Beakers in addition to their normal production. A "Dream Catcher Windmill" Would aslo likely produce beakers. Improvements would/should be the most notable feature of a paragon civ.
Special Units: Each Paragon civ would have a couple new "type" of units (think elven dwarven, orc stuff). These would NEVER have anti-counter promotions for them. Also, some unique ability would be drapped over all of them, regardless of type. For example, The Axeman Equivilant of the Fey might be the Faun. But all Fey units have woodsman I and II, and invisability. Each religion would have its own unique "taste".
Special Buildings: These would replace the older buildings, and function slightly more superior depending on the religion. Ashenvale libraries for example, might provide more % bonus than normal. All in all, the appropriate buildings that would be influence would be wholey superior to the origionals.
Price:
Ah yes, the "rub" as it were. Here's the thing. My argument is that the "Paragon" civic should either emulate, or replace "theocracy". That means no more non-state religious spread. It would also, instantly eliminate the ability to produce any non-religious based unit, building, or improvement (with the exception of nodes). This would mean, essentially, that youd be "starting over" with your civ. Because even if you could once build maceman - if you switched over to a paragon civic, your going to be producing the "worst" of that particular religions units first. And since you cannot "tech up" in that religion until you switch, its a long road to temporary. THis, i believe is a very high and risky price. But considering the potential gains from superior improvements and buildings and units. It'd be an interesting tactic for gameplay. I'm also thinking it should cause longer than normal anarchy.
The idea here is that the switch to a paragon religious civilization, would hurt - ALOT at first. But, if it survived the switch, when it ratcheded up the personal tech tree, and gained access to superior same tier units and equipment. The hurt, would effectively be on.
As I see it, a Paragon unit would be equal to one tier higher than its replacement in power. A paragon axeman replacement, would be as potentially powerful as a mace man. THis would put paragon t4 units as the most powerful in the game (being a veritable t5).
The Other downside. The cesation of all trade with non-similar religious civs. They either share your religion as a STATE religion, or, no trade. Peace is still an option, but no trade, no trade from city to city, no tech trade, nothing. This will generally degrade relations and lead to a lot of "fun times" to be had by all.
Side-Note: Agnostic Civs would have to have access to some private end-game technologies to keep them on par with the potential of paragon civilizations.
Second Side-Note: Ashen Veil and The Order paragon civs would be instantaniously and permantely at war with any civ identifing their opposite as a state-religion (War wearyness from being at war with the antithical civ would be eliminated - other wars would function normally).
OK people, Hack away, and add. But bare in mind its supposed to be "Evolution" and Intergration into an ALREADY fantastic system.
-Qes
) But the idea still intrigues me.
.
