On Evolving Into the Paragon

[QES]

I really like these ideas, I've some Questions, but I'm gonna let you finish before posing them.
-Qes

 

[YohanLeafheart]

I really like these ideas, I've some Questions, but I'm gonna let you finish before posing them.
-Qes

Go for it and make the questions, it could help me finish it and write the rest

 

[QES]

1) What will represent Paragon spread? If its city to city, how will one know what cities are transforming into Paragon Cities, and what are just normal cities with a given religion?

2) This method looks Painfully slow (which I like) and one has to dedicate ones self TO it. But what about "Founding another religion" often the AI just grabs techs to prevent others from doing it. I want the AI to be potentially Paragon too, so is this really a good idea?

3) Is there a way to incorporate Ancient temples? It seems that this may be where the Ancient Temple's Shine.

More when i can think of them.
-Qes

 

[Pelaka]

I would also suggest the cult of the dragon be the anti-paragon religion. The paragon path for the other religions are all about changing the civilization... while the cult of the dragon is about sacrificing the civilization to birth the perfect dragon.

Pel.

 

[YohanLeafheart]

1) What will represent Paragon spread? If its city to city, how will one know what cities are transforming into Paragon Cities, and what are just normal cities with a given religion?

The ideal would be change the graphic of the civilizations. Putting something on the name (like the set of Settlements) could work too.

2) This method looks Painfully slow (which I like) and one has to dedicate ones self TO it. But what about "Founding another religion" often the AI just grabs techs to prevent others from doing it. I want the AI to be potentially Paragon too, so is this really a good idea?

I think it is. For the AI, it would need some work, and some leaders more than others, would choose this paths and forfeit the other religions. I just don't think it makes sense for a civilization to become part of what it adores, if it adores more than one thing.

3) Is there a way to incorporate Ancient temples? It seems that this may be where the Ancient Temple's Shine.

More when i can think of them.
-Qes

What about this. A T3 Recon Unit with one of the promotions, at least level 2, probably, could go explore the Ancient Temple. It would take some turns, and, after that you have a chance of coming with a sacred relic of your religion. This relic would be taken to the HOly City and join it as an specilist given culture and gold bonus as people pilgrim to see it.

 

[QES]

I would also suggest the cult of the dragon be the anti-paragon religion. The paragon path for the other religions are all about changing the civilization... while the cult of the dragon is about sacrificing the civilization to birth the perfect dragon.

Pel.

Intersting/cool idea.

Maybe civs with Cult of dragon influence in those cultures (with the exception of the sheiam and the kuriotates) should have to fight to NOT become the cult of dragon paragon, perhaps it's very very bad to become the Paragon of the Dragon. Your units start getting replaced by barbarian units. Guh, could be interesting?
-Qes

 

[QES]

The ideal would be change the graphic of the civilizations. Putting something on the name (like the set of Settlements) could work too.



I think it is. For the AI, it would need some work, and some leaders more than others, would choose this paths and forfeit the other religions. I just don't think it makes sense for a civilization to become part of what it adores, if it adores more than one thing.



What about this. A T3 Recon Unit with one of the promotions, at least level 2, probably, could go explore the Ancient Temple. It would take some turns, and, after that you have a chance of coming with a sacred relic of your religion. This relic would be taken to the HOly City and join it as an specilist given culture and gold bonus as people pilgrim to see it.

All of these answers, seem to me, to be overly complex, could we simplify each aspect?

I know my origional post is a grand/epic sort of thought, so the idea is to "take away" until we have the drool remaining but the simplicity as maximised as possible.
-Qes

 

[YohanLeafheart]

Ok, let me try to simplify as much as I can (that's a hard work, believe me ).

• Graphics
  
  Ideally, the best would be show the changes on each city and unit converted to Paragon State as a minor diference on the sprite. Let's say their clothes change and become for, for example. Every level would add another minor change. This has the advantage of need less work, but, since I don't know how Civ works with textures and meshs, I have no clue if it is possible or not.
  
  If it is not possible to do this, and until we have other sprites to use, the best solution would be add a sufix on the name of the city to represent its new state. On the case of units a promotion would indicate it.
  
• AI
  
  Simply put, we added a weight to Paragonhood to be evalueted for the AI when it founds a religion. If the leader is religious he won't get any other religions and will start the Path, otherwise he will ignore it.
  
• Ancient Temples
  
  This idea was a little based on the Dragon Hoard unit that will come in 0.16. The recon unit enters the temple. It has to have the cargo slot empty. And, with luck (based on a number of factors that would need thought) it would find a Sacred Relic of his on religion. That Relic would be taken to Holy City where it would have the option to join as an Specilist, generating culture and commerce.

 

[QES]

Digesting Ideas. Trying to synthesise.

"Reticulating Splimes"
-Qes

 

[puck11b]

One problem with the exploring the ancient temples, if I recall correctly those temples are already dedicated to a god, aren't they?

 

[YohanLeafheart]

One problem with the exploring the ancient temples, if I recall correctly those temples are already dedicated to a god, aren't they?

I don't know if they are, sincerely. My idea is that an older civilization worshipped there one of your gods, with luck, and a relic was buried in it. If you are out of luck, well, you need to burn that heathen place

 

[puck11b]

Hooray for the wiki:

Killed by Kyorlin, the god of winter's power is gone and his worshippers fled. These temples are all that is left of the domination the god held over the last age.

 

[YohanLeafheart]

Hmmm, although I remember reading somewhere that Kael was not satisfied with the temples, this is something diferent to do with them.

 

[Brand]

Well, pardon if this has already been proposed, I'm afraid I had to skip ahead. But going by QES's summary it hasn't. Something that could be done is take a page from the Cult. After a Civ has gone Paragon, have a % chance for all other same religion units in other civs have a chance of converting. More or less, while in general the other civs aren't as zealous, youd still get a few that were and would defect(possibly evolving) to the paragon civ. Only major problem I see with this is it takes away from teh Cult and what can make it such a pain.

 

[QES]

Well, pardon if this has already been proposed, I'm afraid I had to skip ahead. But going by QES's summary it hasn't. Something that could be done is take a page from the Cult. After a Civ has gone Paragon, have a % chance for all other same religion units in other civs have a chance of converting. More or less, while in general the other civs aren't as zealous, youd still get a few that were and would defect(possibly evolving) to the paragon civ. Only major problem I see with this is it takes away from teh Cult and what can make it such a pain.

This is an interesting Idea, but what would the downside be?
The fundamental idea we want to maintain is that even if it's a "natural" transition, it should be incredibly painful. The benefits after full transformation will be significant and drastic, but the pains in getting there MAY not be worth it. Depending on the game.
-Qes

 

[Brand]

hrmm.. could be balanced with the possibility of not only other civs losing their units(perhasp even world?) but of the.. less, fanatical, in the paragon civ could defect to barb or other civ status.. possibly entire cities.

 

[Civkid1991]

What about having Paragonhood as a small "cult" within the religion... your people worship their gods but the are so fanatical about it they begin to devote themselves to their religion and eventually a new "cult" will pop up that would have followers who think they are more close to the gods and the true followers of the religion (similar to the protestant revolution in earthly history-> catholicism split into mini-"cults" that got out of hand and eventually replace the original worshipers). This would also seperate the cultists from the original fallowers.

It would also give a negitive culture bonus. If a cult is in the city then it will spread and transform the cities culture into that that has to do with the cult rather then with the original believers.

When all the critereas are met a pop (like Orthu's) appears to you stating that you begin the road to Paragon. After it, a space bar (like the GPs one) will appear on the Holy City. It will grow according to the number of disciple units and temples of that religion you have, and will decrease for each other religion on your cities.

How about having a specific amount of great priests "living" in the city. Instead of adding a new bar (which would probably be painful for the programmers) have a new specialist that would contribute to the creation of the avatar (like the vampire govoner for the clan of the blood, except it would give gp).

 

[QES]

What about having Paragonhood as a small "cult" within the religion... your people worship their gods but the are so fanatical about it they begin to devote themselves to their religion and eventually a new "cult" will pop up that would have followers who think they are more close to the gods and the true followers of the religion (similar to the protestant revolution in earthly history-> catholicism split into mini-"cults" that got out of hand and eventually replace the original worshipers). This would also seperate the cultists from the original fallowers.

It would also give a negitive culture bonus. If a cult is in the city then it will spread and transform the cities culture into that that has to do with the cult rather then with the original believers.



How about having a specific amount of great priests "living" in the city. Instead of adding a new bar (which would probably be painful for the programmers) have a new specialist that would contribute to the creation of the avatar (like the vampire govoner for the clan of the blood, except it would give gp).

This is pretty much antithetical to what I was hoping for (not to be harsh). This isnt about fanatisism, or even cultish activity. THis is about the transformation INTO that which one worshiped, the transformation INTO the divine. It should be painful in ways that prevent you from yousing great power against other nations, but perhaps the people IN the civ themselves love the transformation. I dont see this as an internal struggle for power, or a civil-esque war. I see it as like....well, for a lack of a better term, religious puberty. Your civ is changing, and growing, at times very ugly, and things will stretch and squeak. You're civ may discover a new interest in other civs. Some the targets of affection, some targets of scorn. Its a very insecure time for your civ.

But seriously, Paragoning into the Leaves should be very tranquil (if realatively weak), Paragoning into the Order should be marked by large events, and festivals, trumpets blaring, and the glories that be, are showered upon the masses. Paragoning into the OO shoudl be like falling into a maddening lucid dream, the populace slowly losing their senses and giving in. Sort of a Strangelove/Cathulu mix of emotions. Paragoning into the Runes should feel like wonders of the innerspaces of reality are being explored. Wealth and riches from being tapped into the "Source of all wealth" should be elicieted. Paragoning into the Veil should feel like the earth opened up underneath you and you stand amung demons and devils in hell - As an equal, not a slave.

So while it should be a slow painful process, this doesnt mean a negative process or one rife with strife.
-Qes

 

[Civkid1991]

o i see....

what do you think about having this as a trait (a civ trait rather then a leader trait). If the trait is present then you have a chance (with the conditions that yohan listed) to start the evolution.

 

[QES]

o i see....

what do you think about having this as a trait (a civ trait rather then a leader trait). If the trait is present then you have a chance (with the conditions that yohan listed) to start the evolution.

That might not be a bad idea, but as it is right now, idealy, any civ could become the paragon of a religion, as the whole of paragon status is about religion, not where you came from.
-Qes