On Random Map Creation - Work to be done?

[QES]

Hello QES,
I have an offer and suggestion:
instead of tinkering with the map generator we could use this thread or a new one to post "improved" random maps and random map requests.

I did this for myself with civ3 (because the civ3 map generator was really atrocious), and had a pool of touched up randomly generated maps saved. It takes less than a half hour (for standard size) to improve a random map, and if you haven't seen it before it still a great suprise playing it.

I will make one for you,
but let me know what the basic parameters you desire (specifically):
size
type (pangea / archipeligo / etc...)
# of civs
which civs to include:
# of resources (I can increase or decrease the number of any of these if desired, it might be interesting to play a map with more plentiful mana nodes, espicially when the next version comes out)

What I will do:
1) open up the world builder and generate a random map with the desired parameters, regenerate until you get an interesting looking one.

2) Then make the features more "clumpy" a large desert, a jungle island, large forests, actual mountain ranges

3) Set up new balanced starting locations with appriate terrain for the civs (e.g. Lanun on coast near islands, Malakim in desert, Dwarves near hills mountain ranges, Doviello near tundra, etc...)

If many do this and post the maps in the forum there should be a good selection to choose from.

This sounds like a great idea. Instead of sasiating me however, it makes me want both. I recomend making a New thread and call it "Maps" or something simple but to the point. I would hope that the team perhaps makes this a sticky thing, and then what you could/should do is continously place new maps (random plus) on the thread. Since i dont know how to upload things, it'd be best if its a new thread, and something you could update the first post on. I am all for this idea.

I am STILL wanting the basic random map generator tinkered with by some wiz whom will eventually see this lovely thread, because in general I'm a lazy oaf, and it'd be nice to just hit "play now" a few times and get a different game (with consistantly awesome maps) each time.

Keep it up!
-Qes

 

[SchpailsMan]

I'd suggest having a look at Smartmap for a start. I know Smartmap does a lot of things, including peeking at your starting techs and trying to find a place that fits it (I'm not sure it works for FfH since the tech tree is different, but then again the code is still there so it may give ideas).

 

[QES]

I'd suggest having a look at Smartmap for a start. I know Smartmap does a lot of things, including peeking at your starting techs and trying to find a place that fits it (I'm not sure it works for FfH since the tech tree is different, but then again the code is still there so it may give ideas).

Lol. Smartmap does sound awesome, but i fear mixing and matching mods without knowing what im doing. As is, I go with one mod or another, and i dont mix. In this, if Chalid or wilboman, or Kael, or Talchas etc, are looking at it and discover something juicy, then ill be happy. But unless the team verfies and/or includes it, im not like to see it, as I've had one too many incidents with CTD's that had nothing to do with anything other than me tinkering around with things i didnt understand.

Mayhap you'll tinker and tell us what you can come up with?
-Qes

 

[SchpailsMan]

Smartmap's not a mod, it's a map script... there should be strictly no compatibility issue of any kind. It's just a Python script that generates a map for the game, and then shuts down so the loaded mod can play right.

Anyway, if you're at least curious about it, check this thread

 

[QES]

Smartmap's not a mod, it's a map script... there should be strictly no compatibility issue of any kind. It's just a Python script that generates a map for the game, and then shuts down so the loaded mod can play right.

Anyway, if you're at least curious about it, check this thread

cool i will.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

I tried it out with FfH2 and that smartmap script works really nice.. you can make donut worlds!

All the proper bonuses get placed, like reagents and mana and all that, so its looking good to me.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Hi guys,

I use Smartmaps since the beginning of June. It works well with FfH2.
It's a very good map script, even if it seems difficult to use the first times.

The Frog

 

[QES]

I like smartmap. But it's still not tying in different civs to different major starting posotions. Now while i know that we can all appreciate desert dwarves, and mountain elves, and great plains Lunan. My theory on races and their development has been becasue of the environ's they grew up in, so for a beginning city to be related to their particular...shall we say, "interests" makes sense. Elves starting near forest, does not prevent them from expanding outside the forest, but it does explain why they're ELVES and not something else. The Lunan should be able to expand inland, but their development, or that which makes them "LUNAN" shoudl reflect the environmental conditions around which the species evolved? Just a thought. And all it requires is linkage from/of starting locations to particular civ traits.
-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I like smartmap. But it's still not tying in different civs to different major starting posotions. Now while i know that we can all appreciate desert dwarves, and mountain elves, and great plains Lunan. My theory on races and their development has been becasue of the environ's they grew up in, so for a beginning city to be related to their particular...shall we say, "interests" makes sense. Elves starting near forest, does not prevent them from expanding outside the forest, but it does explain why they're ELVES and not something else. The Lunan should be able to expand inland, but their development, or that which makes them "LUNAN" shoudl reflect the environmental conditions around which the species evolved? Just a thought. And all it requires is linkage from/of starting locations to particular civ traits.
-Qes

Well, ask yourself exactly how many tiles radiating from your starting location is supposed to be the "natural" starting terrain for a race type. Let's say hills for dwarves. Do you expect to see an area about 10 tiles by 30 packed chock full of hills? That's enough for 6-8 cities. Or do you expect to see a clump of maybe 10 x 10 hills so the first 2 to 4 dwarven cities - the core cities - to have a lot of hills?

Personally, I think you can only expect a small clump of "expected" terrain, or else everyone's favorite terrain bumps up agains everyone else. With that mindset, IMO the Fractal map generator does a really fine job providing maps. Just hit the regenerate map button if you have to, to get a starting location you feel "fits" your theme.

Before you say, that sounds good but I'm a greedy SOB, honestly, try it out. I have been amazed - amazed - at how good a job it does generating maps that "feel right". I know exactly what you mean, or at least I think I do. You'd start a game, go through the tense early explorations, and find yourself alone on a medium continent - AGAIN - for the 5th game in a row. Or two AI civs would start in ice-locked tundra, and another alone on a desert continent, no challenge to the game at all ... but you don't discover this until you've played Turn #5,482.

Fractal is amazing in my experience in that you almost never have these problems. I have utter confidence in Fractal at this point. I admit that I will hit Regenerate Map a couple times to ensure the starting location looks reasonable. But once I start into the game, I've never, not once, had a game spoiled by a stupid map. In fact, the maps have been clever and interesting to play on. And you don't what it's going to look like, as you set almost no parameters. I just randomize Climate and Sea Level and off I go.

I tried Smart Map again before I started my ongoing game. I hit Regen Map over and over and kept getting stupid maps ... just a bunch of random tiles mashed all together. No realistic "feel" to it. So I went back to Fractal and ended up with an extremely interesting game on a map I've never seen from any other generator ... a huge continent broken up with a huge inland sea, and two smaller ones, with 6 of the 8 starting civs, and Aecheron setting up shop in my backyard.

Find Fractal (it's on this site somewhere) and I'll bet you you'll be very happy with the maps you game upon.

 

[QES]

Well, ask yourself exactly how many tiles radiating from your starting location is supposed to be the "natural" starting terrain for a race type. Let's say hills for dwarves. Do you expect to see an area about 10 tiles by 30 packed chock full of hills? That's enough for 6-8 cities. Or do you expect to see a clump of maybe 10 x 10 hills so the first 2 to 4 dwarven cities - the core cities - to have a lot of hills?

Personally, I think you can only expect a small clump of "expected" terrain, or else everyone's favorite terrain bumps up agains everyone else. With that mindset, IMO the Fractal map generator does a really fine job providing maps. Just hit the regenerate map button if you have to, to get a starting location you feel "fits" your theme.

Before you say, that sounds good but I'm a greedy SOB, honestly, try it out. I have been amazed - amazed - at how good a job it does generating maps that "feel right". I know exactly what you mean, or at least I think I do. You'd start a game, go through the tense early explorations, and find yourself alone on a medium continent - AGAIN - for the 5th game in a row. Or two AI civs would start in ice-locked tundra, and another alone on a desert continent, no challenge to the game at all ... but you don't discover this until you've played Turn #5,482.

Fractal is amazing in my experience in that you almost never have these problems. I have utter confidence in Fractal at this point. I admit that I will hit Regenerate Map a couple times to ensure the starting location looks reasonable. But once I start into the game, I've never, not once, had a game spoiled by a stupid map. In fact, the maps have been clever and interesting to play on. And you don't what it's going to look like, as you set almost no parameters. I just randomize Climate and Sea Level and off I go.

I tried Smart Map again before I started my ongoing game. I hit Regen Map over and over and kept getting stupid maps ... just a bunch of random tiles mashed all together. No realistic "feel" to it. So I went back to Fractal and ended up with an extremely interesting game on a map I've never seen from any other generator ... a huge continent broken up with a huge inland sea, and two smaller ones, with 6 of the 8 starting civs, and Aecheron setting up shop in my backyard.

Find Fractal (it's on this site somewhere) and I'll bet you you'll be very happy with the maps you game upon.

I tried fractal quite a bit and honestly its not about the "whole" of the gameplay and exploration experiance i have a problem with. THe major issue i'd like to see "resolved" is just the initial placement of that initial settler, and that initial city radius. Civs can "grow" outside of their evolutionary pressures, but to begin with it'd be cool if every civ (not just the human-controled ones) started in their respective native environs.

If i am in a game with ai elves, dwarves and lanun, i want all of them to be in their stereotypical locations. The concern if "i'm alone" or not is inconsequential, this is primarily a flavor-issue, and therefore NOT critical at all to 90% of my gameplay concerns. The addition of "seminal" environs is key simply because once it is a polished product, it will produce the drool of seeing "the elves in their ancient and mysterious forests, the Dwarves buried deep within the mountains getting rich of wonderous mineral veins, the seas rough and tumble with lanun ships claiming whatever their eyes set on..." etc. The 'emersion' i think is pivitol to getting 'lost' within a world, especially one devoted to family.

So, it is not necessarily the compulsion to have "decent" starting locations linked to my particular success in that game, but instead the "fee" of belonging in Erberus.

Cool?
-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I tried fractal quite a bit and honestly its not about the "whole" of the gameplay and exploration experiance i have a problem with. THe major issue i'd like to see "resolved" is just the initial placement of that initial settler, and that initial city radius. Civs can "grow" outside of their evolutionary pressures, but to begin with it'd be cool if every civ (not just the human-controled ones) started in their respective native environs.

If i am in a game with ai elves, dwarves and lanun, i want all of them to be in their stereotypical locations. The concern if "i'm alone" or not is inconsequential, this is primarily a flavor-issue, and therefore NOT critical at all to 90% of my gameplay concerns. The addition of "seminal" environs is key simply because once it is a polished product, it will produce the drool of seeing "the elves in their ancient and mysterious forests, the Dwarves buried deep within the mountains getting rich of wonderous mineral veins, the seas rough and tumble with lanun ships claiming whatever their eyes set on..." etc. The 'emersion' i think is pivitol to getting 'lost' within a world, especially one devoted to family.

So, it is not necessarily the compulsion to have "decent" starting locations linked to my particular success in that game, but instead the "fee" of belonging in Erberus.

Cool?
-Qes

Elves can start anywhere in Civ, because forests are an overlay, not a base terrain. Eventually, the Elven homeland will be wooded.

Dwarves typically start in hills. Fractal does not do a great job of making huge swaths of hills, in my limited experience. But on the other hand, no starting area will be devoid of hills.

As for the seafaring races, I've never played a game where a seafaring race was landlocked. I'm sure it can happen, but the odds are so low I don't see it as a problem.

Are there any other races that have "supposed-ta" terrain types? Because if not, that seems like a lot of anguish spent over a small portion of the races. It sounds like you aren't asking for a random map generator, you're asking for a random scenario generator. A designed scenario can have "supposed-ta" starting homelands, and the map can be designed to spread them out so they don't run up against each other. But that's asking too much for a random map generator.

And anyway, for my tastes, I don't want a random map to generate the same sort of map over and over. Just like I don't finish a book, then immedeately start reading it again, over and over, I like to play on different maps that force different motivations on the races. On one map the elves seek to expand out of their sylvan homeland. In another game on another map the Elves find themselves exiled in the tundra, and they desparately seek to reclaim/recreate their natural wooded realm. Different maps are just like telling the a different fantasy story with a different plot.

 

[dreiche2]

well, but as you said, it might be a question of a taste, so there is no big point in arguing about it. I for my part wouldn't mind an option to have civs placed on their terrain (similar to the "culturally linked starting positions" in civ 3), after all I don't have to use it all the time if I don't want to...

Oh and if you call it a random map generator or a random scenario creator is just semantics (and I actually if we talk about the semantics I think map generator would still be more fitting )

btw, at least two more civs have a 'natural' terrain, the malakim (desert) and the doviello (tundra)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

well, but as you said, it might be a question of a taste, so there is no big point in arguing about it. I for my part wouldn't mind an option to have civs placed on their terrain (similar to the "culturally linked starting positions" in civ 3), after all I don't have to use it all the time if I don't want to...

Oh and if you call it a random map generator or a random scenario creator is just semantics (and I actually if we talk about the semantics I think map generator would still be more fitting )

btw, at least two more civs have a 'natural' terrain, the malakim (desert) and the doviello (tundra)

I'm playing the Malakim now. What makes desert their favored terrain? I'm curious, as I certanly saw no benefit to the stuff. As soon as I built my first Adept he used his 1st 2 experience points to take Water so he could get rid of whatever desert I had. I know I certainly could not extract resources from desert tiles ... so why would I "want" to start in desert?

I was unaware that the Doviello drew any advantage from Tunra tiles. I've only skimmed the civ descriptions, the Doviello sort of fit the 'barbarian niche' yes? So perhaps they stylistically prefer tundra. But what game mechanics exist to make them thrive if they are placed in tundra? Any? I don't know of any. Seems to me, forcing the Doviello into Tundra would be tantamount to hamstringing their economy on the outset.

Anyway, the difference between a scenario and a random map is much more than semantics. A scenario has been designed to highlight a certain gaming experience, and it has been play-tested a bit to ensure the various positions are in balance. Scenario maps are generally products of labor and attention. Asking a random map generator to produce scenario-quality maps, and assign various different civs to their "natural" terrain - without crippling some civs in the process - does in point of fact strike me as asking too much from a random map generator.

Yes, if such an item could be coded within a short timeframe and minimal effort, I'd love to see someone code it. But I think the reason we don't see such an item is because it is setting the bar a bit too high. That's JMO.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd like to put my vote in for stereotypical starting locations. I really can't say much in defense of it that hasn't been said before, so let me just say this: a lot of stuff has been added to this game where it would have been easier to just leave the default settings. Take a look at FfH 1, and see how big a difference there is. A lot of those changes are just for flavor. If all that has been done for such a simple cause, is making Civs start where they should really so much?

With all of the changes that are being made to the different Civs, we also have to keep in mind that Civs that don't start in their preferred terrain are going to be a lot weaker than Civs that do. This will handicap a player that starts in an undesirable location even more than it does in vanilla Civ IV.

 

[Sureshot]

Doviello units get defensive (and offensive) bonuses in combat while in tundra.

Malakim will have +25% defense (while everyone else gets -25% defense) in desert tiles, and desert tiles will cost 2 movement points for others, but Malakim units will get double movement in desert tiles.

There may be other benefits/negatives i don't know about.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Doviello units get defensive (and offensive) bonuses in combat while in tundra.

Malakim will have +25% defense (while everyone else gets -25% defense) in desert tiles, and desert tiles will cost 2 movement points for others, but Malakim units will get double movement in desert tiles.

There may be other benefits/negatives i don't know about.

I saw no movement bennies while in desert, and didn't even think to look for combat bonuses, but I still would not leave a scrap of desert within two tiles of a Malakin city. Desert tiles are for the other civs, IMO. I might fight a few battles on a desert tile or two during the course of a several-hundred turn game. For one turn's defensive bonus I am going to leave tiles out of production for hundreds of turns? No thanks.

If a desert tile is needed, Scorch is a Channeling I spell. Much better than forcing an AI Malakim into a desert wasteland game after game. The economic hit will cripple them. Same idea to a lesser extent for the Doviello. It's hard to complete with civs built in river valleys, when your capital is size three and produces only 1 extra per turn.

You can compensate for these shortcomings with a scenario by fine-tuning the starting locations. But it's asing a lot for the same quality out of a random generator.

Again, I'd love it if it could be coded. As was pointed out, the option to 'force' starting locations could be turned off. So by all means if it is coded I'll at least try it out. In the meantime, I'll be breathing normally.

I'm not trying to scutttle such a project. I'm just saying that Fractal really satisfies this gamer. Until the Ultramap Generator comes along, try Fractal for tons of fun!

 

[Sureshot]

sorry, i meant to say (was thinking it but forget to write it) that that will be in 0.15 version

 

[Sureshot]

i like the Smartmap script, but it can take a bit of playing to figure out good settings (and there are some really good settings for it to make some very good maps).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I saw no movement bennies while in desert, and didn't even think to look for combat bonuses, but I still would not leave a scrap of desert within two tiles of a Malakin city. Desert tiles are for the other civs, IMO. I might fight a few battles on a desert tile or two during the course of a several-hundred turn game. For one turn's defensive bonus I am going to leave tiles out of production for hundreds of turns? No thanks.

As someone who primarily plays the Malakim, this is a big issue for me. Asking the random map generator to have the projected Malakim spread of lands surrounded by a desert from the beginning is also probably too much to ask of a random generator. There's actually an interesting discussion that starts on page 9 of the Design: Relgions thread. I might have conceded the point, but who knows what the future will bring?

On the other hand, it can be argued that flood plains are the best type of terrain, with three one . If the random map generator stuck the Malakim in the middle of the biggest desert, but with a few more rivers flowing through it than normal, I could deal with that. In fact, I might prefer it.

As for the Doviello, I don't know what to say. Maybe increasing the number of resources that spawn in tundras a bit might help balance this, or giving the Doviello an extra from tundra tiles might work, too. Starting the Doviello in tundras also leads to the fact that they'll be mighty eager to shunt out any Civs that stand between them and more prosperous lands... an excuse to play them warlike, which might work out well. I've seen the Doviello in the jungle a few times, and it's really not good for flavor.

 

[Sureshot]

i like the idea of malakim getting more out of deserts and doviello getting more out of tundra (maybe even getting 1 food from ice).

also itd be nice if they got the ability to build some improvements on them that others couldn't, like quarries on deserts to give a slight trade or production boost with the chance of finding marble or stone for the malakim, or the ability to make windmills in tundra for the doviello (or can you already? i dont know), or farms.