[GS] On Scouts...

Pure24 said:
there isn't really a need to 'hide' the scout anymore
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At times these is... and I am unconvinced you can hide in enemy territory but that is anecdotal.
Bitterman said:
even considering what Victoria said
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Whooaa, I have tried to make it clear that all I really care about with a scout is it comes out before a slinger and has a ZOC and therefore lowers the risk of barb scouts finding me. The rest is immaterial and fun... and this should be clear in the fact that I only use one and made it clear I do not mother it.
The opening unit can be a slinger or a builder also and the most efficient players I see on GOTM open scout or builder in most cases, but not all. This means the is no right choice and when bored just try an alternative to you usual but be aware of what you can do with each of the units before you try. For example... on an island map I will always open builder and sailing and get it out to sea with 1 charge left.
WRT your third paragraph I 100% agree apart from the useless promotion bit. They are a glass cannon.
WRT an ‘exploit’ the fact that archers are OP and so you build tonnes is exactly the same, the game rules make it so and people exploit it by building lots. To me the main difference is my scout/ skirmisher is a small fun intriguing sideshow that makes me use my mind in a less brutal more subtle way and I prefer that. A skirmisher irl was a baiting unit and a cover unit... your exploit is in fact what skirmishes were.
Lvl 3 rarely happens but is a bit like winning a small sum on the lottery. I wanted it as an opening for good reason and if lvl3 happens it is serious fun. If you have never had a l3 skirmisher at the right time perhaps getting the fun value of it is missed.
I never build more than one unless Germany or Inca and rarely use the double xp card but I do when the opportunity arises. I personally find the -1 gold maintenance card is often rubbish but everyone else slots it.
If I have 3 hills I can mine I will not open scout.
 
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Invisibility for recons make good sense. After all they already have it as an promotion, but base ability would be better I think.

But I heard some guy said AI can't handle it any good. Altho that can perhaps be fixed by giving specops 1 attack range and changing the "move after attack" promotion, if hit and run stuff was the issue.
 
Victoria said:
take the left hand promotions then.. +1 sight and see through woods and jungle.
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I do just that, but aesthetically, I hate exploring the New World with medieval bandits donning masks; I want Lewis and Clark blazing trails, not Robin Hood.

Disclaimer: Aesthetics and theme matter to me more than they should.
 
Wara-ku have double shot and gains experience easily (as long as they don't die)

Otherwise no need. What's the benefit of having a level 3 Skirmisher? Level 3 or 4 musket or crossbow is not worse than that, but much more useful when they're still at lower levels.
 
bengalryan9 said:
I can't exactly upgrade them when they're halfway across the world exploring new lands.
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You can upgrade units in a Suzerain CS territory. Also in opponents territory under certain conditions (I don't know if you need to be Allies, or if being Friendly and having Open Borders will suffice).

As an aside, what do you people tend to take for your first Scout promo? I know the usual response is, "whatever you have more of around you." But I tend to have both Woods/Rainforest and Hills around me, so that doesn't help. Also, I'm not typically scouting the territory around me, so I should probably take something to help with uncharted territory. But, obviously, I won't know that terrain until after I explore it. So I've been taking the Hills promo for no other reason than Woods/Rainforest are a removable feature, while Hills are permanent.
 
As an aside, what do you people tend to take for your first Scout promo?
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Hills. I want Scouts to go on hills, because they are...well...scouts.
 
The most fun I had with scouts was as the Cree. Their scouts are as strong as warriors, so they survive the opening rounds. I had 3 scouts levelled to at least 4, so they owned. It's not just the combat strength--it's their movement. It combines well with a GG.

The other problem besides their survivability was how they didn't benefit from the +50% land-unit production policy cards (at least as Cree--I'm pretty sure that still holds true for other civs, but I didn't check yet). At game start, that card (Agoge) is not available to you, so it doesn't matter. But later on with that card, other units become tit-for-tat better than scouts; especially if you can build horse archers with +50% cavalry. So this is primarily about levelling that FIRST scout or two. And that first level needs to come from barbs, if you can help it. You can promotion-save that first promo and keep on fighting barbs, to improve their survivability. You are only losing 1xp by promotion-saving vs. barbs (or vs. disloyal cities who just flipped to free).

Later in the game, I'll occasionally hit the situation where I chose a government with only 1 military policy slot, and I need that 1 slot for something other than land units. That's a good time to put a skirmisher through a barracks. Why not? Then go off together with a GG and bully a weaker civ for some xp. If that GG happens to be Hannibal or El Cid, he's going obsolete and I need to retire him, then I'm using him on a pre-ambush skirmisher. It's nice to have a pair of skirmishers w/ ambush--let alone ambush AND spyglass AND sentry--though often my game has higher priorities than that. They lend some goodness to the military that's harder to quantify, because it's not just raw combat strength numbers.
 
Bitterman said:
I'm still not convinced about scouts being something worth building most of the time, even considering what Victoria said countless times now. Fun sure (in fact I build 1-2 at the start and a couple more as the game progresses) but useful not that much.

If we value them for what they are supposed to be most valued for and what is their main role, that is, exploration, they fall behind as soon as you get light cavalry. Horses are better in battle, move faster, ignore ZOC and, even if I have not the numbers at hand now, are possibly not that much more expensive to produce using the cavalry card. Scouts can't freely cross borders either and I'm not sure if they really have an advantage in sight compared to light cav.
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The entire utility of scouts is that you can build them from the beginning, when exploration is most valuable, and that they are cheap, and that is why I almost always build one first and sometimes two or three (though that is rare). I promote them to get Ambush because it really is the only way to make them more than minimally useful in later stages of the game, but any real use to skirmishers and beyond is lagniappe, the reason they were built was for the first fifty turns. And yes, if you do get a few promoted skirmishers, they have an added benefit of being fun.
 
shaglio said:
You can upgrade units in a Suzerain CS territory. Also in opponents territory under certain conditions (I don't know if you need to be Allies, or if being Friendly and having Open Borders will suffice).

As an aside, what do you people tend to take for your first Scout promo? I know the usual response is, "whatever you have more of around you." But I tend to have both Woods/Rainforest and Hills around me, so that doesn't help. Also, I'm not typically scouting the territory around me, so I should probably take something to help with uncharted territory. But, obviously, I won't know that terrain until after I explore it. So I've been taking the Hills promo for no other reason than Woods/Rainforest are a removable feature, while Hills are permanent.
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That works later in the game, but if they're still uncovering the map (which is what scouts should be doing) chances are I've just met the city states they are nearby for the very first time.

I think scouts should be able to ignore ZOC. At the very least they should be able to move backwards away from an enemy if they have the movement point to do so.
 
Just because they are named "scout" doesn't mean they are the ones who should be exploring the map. A musketman moves the same embarked speed as a scout. An apostle can scout a peaceful AI a lot better than a scout can.
 
As Germany, it can be risky but sometimes really fun to make 5-6 scouts from turn zero since you'll always be running the +5 against barbs card and the double EXP card. Get your scouts their movement buff (just two attacks against barbs) and then rush someone's territory with the sole purpose of capturing workers and settlers while pillaging everything you can. The quick movement will usually let you avoid combat entirely or easily slip away. Also, 3 scouts against a lone warrior is always a win for the scout and will get you 8 EXP per attack. Healing will be slow but if you got in there and pillaged stuff, their production should be significantly slowed.

You can also pretty easily carrol barb scouts into their lands simply by accident or with just a single scout of your own which can get them swamped with barbs while you retreat back to your own lands.

If no one is near or they're well defended, you can use your scout-wall to deny an enemy the map. A well-placed scout in a mountain pass can take a choke point or even better, moving back and forth on a two-tile wide choke point can block a single unit.

Like I said -- a difficult but fun gambit.
 
Pietato said:
Spec-ops buffed, because they suck.
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The whole failing of the scout class is the special abilities they get as promotion should really be there by default. Like a scout should get the +1 sight, the skirmisher should be able to move then fire, the ranger should be able to conceal well and the spec ops, to para in, which they can do... but they should have all those other abilities by this stage, sights and stealth and attack then move. Without them they suck big time.
The promotions for this class should be to special use them like +10 vs support units, 30% damage to a wall, 1 MP pillage. This type of thing.
 
Victoria said:
I personally find the -1 gold maintenance card is often rubbish but everyone else slots it.
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Quick aside question, I agree... this card is kinda useless, but find myself using it nevertheless! The 'idea' of it sounds intriguing, but whenever I calculate that it would take 50 turns with this card in to save 50 gold (which is less than a single resource chop in the early game without Magnus!) I find myself realising how ridiculous it is to have it running. And yet... I still slot it! My lizard brain is easy to trick, I guess.

Anyways, my question: how would you improve the two cards?
A quick buff would be to change the bonuses to -3/-8 each. Maybe let them have different bonuses (-4 unit maintenance for Conscription and 'maintenance costs for all units reduced by 50% per turn' for Levée... for Levé... for the other one!).

Could be a thread of it's own I guess
 
An extra 8-10 gold /turn means you can upgrade a chariot to a knight in 25 turns, or an Incan scout into an Incan slinger in 20+ turns.
 
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