[GS] On Scouts...

[Pure24]

I love having a 'Combat Scout', meaning obtaining that +20 3rd tier promotion. Most of the time, I beeline for it which means having to forgo faster movement in either hills or in trees.

Problem is that it takes sooo long to get a Recon Unit to that promotion. Melee and ranged units can get there easy! But given that a scout can only take or receive one hit (maybe two) before it has to retreat, it becomes a chore - this compounded by the fact that you barely get any XP from combat beyond the first promotion.
Scouts get XP from other sources too, true, but Natural Wonders and Tribal Villages and so on are quite 'rare', as in there are not enough of them to bridge a +60 XP requirement. And by the time you get to those higher requirements, you'd have uncovered more than a third of all XP boosting sources, meaning you get diminishing returns for the effort of more scouting.

Moreover, as useful as an early scout is I'd like them to maintain their relevance into the late game. I understand that Mechanics need to change over time, but at least the option should remain for a different playstyle. After all, the Recon Unit line goes all the way into the late game. Why go to all the trouble of making an entire useless unit type?

This isn't a complaint about scouts being too squishy. I actually like that! Makes scouting actually interesting, and one of the reasons the early game is so much fun.

Maybe I am missing something... what ways does anybody like to use to farm XP for Recon Units? And to what use do you have for scouts later on in the game? Not being a min-max kinda guy in my normal games, I tend to have games (on Standard) that last even into turn 300 and beyond. It just makes my scouts kinda... useless after they've been everywhere

 

[Ozymandias9891]

The NerfedBarbarians and More Barbarian EXP mods in the workshop help to get to that promotion quickly. Sometimes too quickly...

But it still makes for fun gameplay!

 

[criZp]

The only reason the strength bonus is so high is because very few units will be able to get it. If recons were able to level up more reliably the strength boost would need to be lowered.

but yes I do agree that recon units should be able to get xp without having to luck out with natural wonders. I think maybe giving recon units a bit of xp for gaining sight on enemy units during war could be a thing.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Scouts can be handy in an early war. Their extra movement is useful to...scout out enemy unit positions so your slower units don't get caught between the terrain and the enemy army. Cavalry is better at this but you don't always have the luxury to build them in the early game. Scouts can also take a shot from a city while you are getting your siege units in range. Once you get skirmishers you can declare war on someone and just farm XP on a city after the walls have been taken down.

 

[Sostratus]

First, you really have to run the Survey Card, which doubles XP for recon units.
Second, usually if I am going for a recon strategy I will push out a couple extra scouts early and send them out to see if anyone gets the first promo from exploring, or punching a barbarian scout in the face, or whatever.
Third, upgrading to skirmishers and using them in or against cities during a war. This part it key - often, if I can take down the city walls of a relatively weak and useless AI city, I will let a skirmisher or two stand there and farm the city health. Guerrilla is really useful here to keep out of harm's way if they reinforce the city.

Fourth, consider using Terracotta army to slingshot some level 1/2 units to 2/3. Once a unit gets ambush he can fight on his own and keep leveling.
This all works much better with incans since the warak'aq can attack twice = get XP twice as fast.
Rangers unlock super late if you don't focus that path, although ambush rangers are quite strong once you add corps status.

 

[Victoria]

Problem is that it takes sooo long to get a Recon Unit to that promotion

Take the double promotion card and fend off enemy scout and take a goody hut before you explore.
Levelm2 promo is 30 xp and level 3 is 45. Discover a couple of wonders and you are at level2. Then upgrade to skirmish.
From there you bait enemy by standing on a hill one tile away, they come toward you, shoot and reserve
Take a city with a scout and the double xp card for 20XP.
It really is not long... but yes a tad risky which is why I take 1 scout and slot the scout xp card when not fighting barbs.

 

[KayAU]

I agree with @Pure24 and have been thinking about thinking about this on several occasions. I would love to see recon units have more opportunity to gain experience. I think I remember the Vox Populi mod for Civ 5 gave scouts XP for, well, scouting. This made sense to me. As I recall it, they just had to uncover new tiles to earn XP. If this should turn out to be too generous, how about just giving them XP when discovering named terrain features? I think that would add to the immersion as well.

 

[bengalryan9]

I used to be enticed by that +20 promotion, now I rarely even bother to build scouts at all. I just have awful luck when it comes to keeping them alive... they'll always stumble across some stupidly advanced barbarian that one shots them since I can't exactly upgrade them when they're halfway across the world exploring new lands.

 

[Sostratus]

I used to be enticed by that +20 promotion, now I rarely even bother to build scouts at all. I just have awful luck when it comes to keeping them alive... they'll always stumble across some stupidly advanced barbarian that one shots them since I can't exactly upgrade them when they're halfway across the world exploring new lands.

You have to contort your play style to make it work, and ambush is a good promo but it’s really only effective if:
You can get it on a handful of Warak’aq
You have it on Rangers and get rangers at a decent point in the industrial (many people take rifling last, after they’ve gotten to the modern. Rangers even with ambush are not invincible, but you also get corps unlocked in the industrial, and they really shine as 90/75 corps.

However, spec ops units vs the atomic/info era units really aren’t that good. Ambush brings them up to 85/80, which is where info era units already are! So your window to get these units promoted is focused on medieval-industrial. But spec ops have other utility.

 

[Minou]

@Victoria "Take a city with a scout and the double xp card for 20XP."

Wow, that is genius! Never really thought about that before....

 

[criZp]

That's because it's what we call an illogical exploit. Infantry and whatnot does the real dirty work and the scouts get a ton of xp just for strolling in.

 

[tetley]

I find this promo invaluable. You just have to keep your scouts alive and not throw them away, and they happen.

 

[Victoria]

That's because it's what we call an illogical exploit. Infantry and whatnot does the real dirty work and the scouts get a ton of xp just for strolling in.

I rarely get the praise in my job, normally it is some manager somewhere. Same thing with scouts

 

[Karmah]

When going for a fun army of scout (usually with a civ that has a related UU) :

Two or three scout built
Cheap shot barbs
Early rush of a neighbor.
Take cities (once the other units have turned it to zero defense ), it's the juiciest xp bag
Beeline terracotta after campus
Turn to skirmisher early

Usually done for me at immortal level because it's a fun strat not an optimal one. Obviously found poundmaker to be the best candidate (scout beefy at start) . I always wanted to try it with Inca but never got around actually testing it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually OPtimal. (on the other hand, one might argue that picking Inca is already falling into OP strat)

 

[Victoria]

. I always wanted to try it with Inca but never got around actually testing it. I

Seriously, as you appreciate the class ability, the Waraqac is a level above and the fact you can upgrade into the UU helps a lot. You just must do this once, Worth every minute. Double shot = double xp. It is the fire then move ability that just makes it crazy.
For example, shoot then upgrade, shoot then pillage.

 

[darkace77450]

You guys are talking about combat scouts and I'm just wishing the Medieval Era skirmisher was instead a Renaissance Era explorer with bonuses to movement instead of ranged combat capabilities.

To the topic at hand, I always find myself stalling out after three promotions whether I'm using my scouts for combat, exploration, or both. The only time I hit that 4th promotion is by burning a great general.

 

[Victoria]

I'm just wishing the Medieval Era skirmisher was instead a Renaissance Era explorer with bonuses to movement

take the left hand promotions then.. +1 sight and see through woods and jungle. You movement ones are at level 1 and can be taken but yes, I do ask myself
1. Why a scout can never move 4... a mounted scout for God’s sake, should be level 3 scouting promo and +1 sight moved to level2.
2. Why a scout can see 2 tiles and a settler 3 (prob a game mechanic but still) and that leads on to the sight rules... I stand on a hill and can only still see 2 tiles while someone at sea level can see me standing on the hill from 3 tiles. Now this requires the wobbly eyes The earth is not flat, you can see further with a higher elevation. https://www.quora.com/When-I-look-o...izon-How-much-of-the-ocean-can-I-actually-see

The only time I hit that 4th promotion is by burning a great general.

With Inca the Terracotta Army is a great boost.
Once you are level 3 combat you can very quickly become level 567. Exploring scouts do very little to get xp. I often use 1 charge builders because I can use most of em later as builders. Often late game I want to chop say 5 trees in a single turn for a wonder and these are great for that... it’s just all the pushing around that can be a pain if you do not like the exploring aspect (I like it)

 

[cvb]

I rarely get the praise in my job, normally it is some manager [...]

That's why it is called 'coxed fours': one is rowing & the others bear the responsibility, show the direction etc ...

.

 

[Pure24]

I find this promo invaluable. You just have to keep your scouts alive and not throw them away, and they happen.

This promotion is great! Much better than the fourth in my books.

If you have that promotion, there isn't really a need to 'hide' the scout anymore

 

[Bitterman]

I'm still not convinced about scouts being something worth building most of the time, even considering what Victoria said countless times now. Fun sure (in fact I build 1-2 at the start and a couple more as the game progresses) but useful not that much.

If we value them for what they are supposed to be most valued for and what is their main role, that is, exploration, they fall behind as soon as you get light cavalry. Horses are better in battle, move faster, ignore ZOC and, even if I have not the numbers at hand now, are possibly not that much more expensive to produce using the cavalry card. Scouts can't freely cross borders either and I'm not sure if they really have an advantage in sight compared to light cav.

In the other hand, if we value them as assets of war, their usefulness is tremendously limited by their promotions, and those are just too difficult to level, even wasting one of your red card slots for the double xp card. Guerrilla is only useful if you have a skirmisher, and even then you are playing with a glass cannon. Survivalism is the only really useful in battle, and the only one really feasible to obtain if you invest a lot in keeping those units alive. The main problem here is that even if you manage to get to this point, you will most likely only have one unit like this and not more. In this level they are good indeed, but I'm not sure the investment is worth it, even in terms of fun/enjoyment.

In relation to what Victoria says:

First, is true they can easily level up conquering cities, but as other have said, this shouldn't be even possible in the first place if we attend to the internal logic of the game. Like I can't take a city with a batallion of crossbowmen trained for war, but a guy with a stick and a dog can do it. Oh well.

And second, is also true that AI will indeed attack them in most cases because their low health (or whatever is called) but that just the AI being dumb and nothing more. AI just fails to correctly identify threats here, and I see it also as an exploit for that reason.

There are a lot of things that can be done to make them better and more useful that do not include a higher CS per se. Why can't they cross borders freely if any religious unit can (and that, in fact, make those units better at exploring than scouts), or why can't they have an abbility that make them invisible except for adjacent units or something in that line, like with the naval raider class. Or maybe pillage consuming just 1 movement point.