On Tech Diffusion and the Steamroll effect

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Wha...? Really? You're going to take OUT content? I thought that was against this game's mantra. Hydro's going to have a fit...

Well my idea (and probably Hydro's also) will remove all the cultures and replace them with something even more dynamic. I also have ideas for evolving religions beyond what is in the Rapture and Faces of God mod. Thunderbrd has ideas on that line also. that will man that we will be taking out all the current ones and replacing them with an infinite number of new ones.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ooh, I see. Pushing your own agenda, eh? Nurturing the baby, as it were? Haha, well...

In all seriousness, the first-to bonuses are one of the highlights to civ, for me. Nothing beats the adrenaline as you're racing to an awesome bonus, and you're desperately pulling out all the stops to get to it. It's like a third of the fun of the whole game...

Which is why its there. And why something needs to counter it somewhat... like... well you know what I mean.


@DH: taking out all the cultures? I have some ideas there that actually insists they stay pretty much put... we'll have to have a bit of a talk along those lines. Game options Game options... lol.

 

[wolfensoul9]

Which is why its there. And why something needs to counter it somewhat... like... well you know what I mean.

Erm...why would you want to counter fun? You say "Which is why it's there", as if agreeing with me that it's there because it's fun, and then say that something needs to counter it? I'm confused.

Seriously, the first to tech bonuses are not some overlord that dominates and unbalances the game...until a person gets really, really far ahead, unreachably ahead. And do you know what you should do to counter that...? If it's the AI getting that far ahead, play a easier difficulty, if it's the player, play a harder one. There. Problem solved.

There's already an option to give the AI handicaps. It's called moving up a difficulty...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Increasing difficulty isn't much different than tech diffusion if you think about it. Pretty much the same effect except its Anti-Crime, Health, Happiness, Tech Cost, Production Cost diffusion really. And its more sweeping rather than the more rational tech diffusion.

And while its fun to capture the first-to bonuses on techs, as the game carries on, it has a side effect of making you unchallengable. (without adjusting the difficulty.) So that's why the optimal answer is to generally allow it (and if removing first to bonuses only do so via a gameoption) and to include a tech diffusion dynamic to help bring the game progress back into some balance.

 

[wolfensoul9]

Increasing difficulty isn't much different than tech diffusion if you think about it. Pretty much the same effect except its Anti-Crime, Health, Happiness, Tech Cost, Production Cost diffusion really. And its more sweeping rather than the more rational tech diffusion.

And while its fun to capture the first-to bonuses on techs, as the game carries on, it has a side effect of making you unchallengable. (without adjusting the difficulty.) So that's why the optimal answer is to generally allow it (and if removing first to bonuses only do so via a gameoption) and to include a tech diffusion dynamic to help bring the game progress back into some balance.

Yes. Tech diffusion and increasing the difficulty are both giving the AI handicaps. To tell you the truth, I don't approve of either. But I prefer the difficulty up because it affects everyone BUT you, you start off as the underdog, and have to overcome that, rather than your lead being diminished due to handicaps the AI suddenly gets. Keyword being suddenly.

Like I said earlier, in a perfect world, no one would need to play above noble. Nobody would get any handicaps. That is the future I wish you guys would all strive for, however daunting. Not simply implementing a different form of handicap, but trying to find a way to not need them at all! That would be so wonderful...

Also like I said, there's nothing wrong with being unchallengable if that state was a result of your good playing, and getting the good stuff first. Indeed, it is only proper. How could it not be?

 

[AIAndy]

Yes. Tech diffusion and increasing the difficulty are both giving the AI handicaps. To tell you the truth, I don't approve of either. But I prefer the difficulty up because it affects everyone BUT you, you start off as the underdog, and have to overcome that, rather than your lead being diminished due to handicaps the AI suddenly gets. Keyword being suddenly.

Like I said earlier, in a perfect world, no one would need to play above noble. Nobody would get any handicaps. That is the future I wish you guys would all strive for, however daunting. Not simply implementing a different form of handicap, but trying to find a way to not need them at all! That would be so wonderful...

Also like I said, there's nothing wrong with being unchallengable if that state was a result of your good playing, and getting the good stuff first. Indeed, it is only proper. How could it not be?

How often do you want to repeat the same point?
On the one hand you think bonuses for the ones that are ahead are fine and great fun but on the other hand you think that bonuses for the ones that are behind are unfair and evil.

Even if you play entirely multiplayer, no AIs, there would be a very low chance to get to the galactic era.
Positive feedback loops make the game balance instable. So either you remove them or you add some negative feedback loops and make it more and more difficult the further you get ahead to get even further ahead.

 

[Faustmouse]

Quick question, how is tech diffusion working now?

I always thought that Techs get cheaper, the more civs you know (and have good relatiosn with) already have this tech.
How big is the influence if only one civ knows a tech? Just to help me getting a picture of it...

So, lets say all civs know the same techs, but I know one tech more. How much does this tech cost the others to research? 95% of the original costs? 80%? (approx)

If 10 Civs know a tech, but I dont, how much faster will I research it? (Again, approx)

 

[wolfensoul9]

How often do you want to repeat the same point?
On the one hand you think bonuses for the ones that are ahead are fine and great fun but on the other hand you think that bonuses for the ones that are behind are unfair and evil.

Even if you play entirely multiplayer, no AIs, there would be a very low chance to get to the galactic era.
Positive feedback loops make the game balance instable. So either you remove them or you add some negative feedback loops and make it more and more difficult the further you get ahead to get even further ahead.

In answer to your question, as often as it is challenged.

And bonuses are only as fair or unfair as what was done or not done to achieve them. A person or AI didn't get ahead because of dumb luck. They got there through skill. And these "bonuses" we keep talking about are not some additional reward you get for getting ahead, they ARE getting ahead. I worked hard, played well and used good strategy...what could be more proper and fair than me being ahead?

The AI played decidedly different. What could be more fair than them getting squashed under assault mechs? I'll tell you what isn't fair. Giving them free tech points they don't deserve. If you don't want the poor, trembling AI firing arrows in vain at tanks, make them better players of the game. If you can't, then well, that sucks. But it is not an excuse to go and devolve the process into this pseudo-balancing, artificial difficulty crap.

Make the AI play well enough so no player ever gets into this infinite positive feedback loop (which I am still not sure truly exists in the form everyone keeps saying it does), and then you will be golden.

Edit: Again, I would like to state that I have nothing but the utmost respect for Koshling's work on the AI already.

 

[Petete]

I personally like a good fight, a challange. I'm sure many people here do as well.

If I am steamrolling the AI I don't get that challange anymore, thats when I quit.

I trust this team to make all the changes necesarry to keep the AI competetive, tech diffusion bonus sounds reasonable to me.

My two cent's right there.

 

[AIAndy]

In answer to your question, as often as it is challenged.

Well, you have not convinced me and repeating your arguments does nothing about that so I will simply ignore you.

 

[wolfensoul9]

Not a course of action I'd recommend in any event, but very well.^

 

[Necratoid]

Thank you modder for completely ignoring my posts. Thank you so much for ignoring my concerns. It feels great to be ignored and here epic vagueness in response.

Seriously... if I end up being in contact with 49 of Civs... exactly how much of a tech bonus to we all get? Because this concern is being ignored in favor of bickering in evasion patterns with wolfensoul9. Who should not respond to this.

Let me try again... I'm a Leader fan. The entire point is to get ahead in ... I also mostly end up shafted with starting locations. Small forested artic area start? I have to get artic promtions to explore. Tiny penisula (less than 20 squares on a huge map) cut off by a random mountain occuping the single piece of connecting land? No animals and no exploring till I get rafts. Trapped in a corner surrounded by desert and with multiple AIs fighting me for space? SOP. Every open space spawing yet another source of the one herd animal in my borders? It normal for me to lose any chance of extra resources this way.

So... tell us blatantly how much of a bonus are the Civs I just spent the last ten hours techng past (eternity player) going to get here? I'm seeing modders giving no details and promising to make the game more 'balanced'... by 'something, mumble, something' involving getting the AI to speed tech for bonuses they won't explain.


So far this is looking like a reason to never enter the ocean so I don't get shafted. I can only fill in the details myself as the modders aren't answering me here, yet. So far its being filled with a complete anihilation of my play style.

Please don't respond wolfensoul9.

 

[ls612]

Thank you modder for completely ignoring my posts. Thank you so much for ignoring my concerns. It feels great to be ignored and here epic vagueness in response.

Seriously... if I end up being in contact with 49 of Civs... exactly how much of a tech bonus to we all get? Because this concern is being ignored in favor of bickering in evasion patterns with wolfensoul9. Who should not respond to this.

Let me try again... I'm a Leader fan. The entire point is to get ahead in ... I also mostly end up shafted with starting locations. Small forested artic area start? I have to get artic promtions to explore. Tiny penisula (less than 20 squares on a huge map) cut off by a random mountain occuping the single piece of connecting land? No animals and no exploring till I get rafts. Trapped in a corner surrounded by desert and with multiple AIs fighting me for space? SOP. Every open space spawing yet another source of the one herd animal in my borders? It normal for me to lose any chance of extra resources this way.

So... tell us blatantly how much of a bonus are the Civs I just spent the last ten hours techng past (eternity player) going to get here? I'm seeing modders giving no details and promising to make the game more 'balanced'... by 'something, mumble, something' involving getting the AI to speed tech for bonuses they won't explain.


So far this is looking like a reason to never enter the ocean so I don't get shafted. I can only fill in the details myself as the modders aren't answering me here, yet. So far its being filled with a complete anihilation of my play style.

Please don't respond wolfensoul9.

If you don't like it don't enable it at the game start. It is a gameoption, so you don't need to use it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thank you modder for completely ignoring my posts. Thank you so much for ignoring my concerns. It feels great to be ignored and here epic vagueness in response.

Seriously... if I end up being in contact with 49 of Civs... exactly how much of a tech bonus to we all get? Because this concern is being ignored in favor of bickering in evasion patterns with wolfensoul9. Who should not respond to this.

Let me try again... I'm a Leader fan. The entire point is to get ahead in ... I also mostly end up shafted with starting locations. Small forested artic area start? I have to get artic promtions to explore. Tiny penisula (less than 20 squares on a huge map) cut off by a random mountain occuping the single piece of connecting land? No animals and no exploring till I get rafts. Trapped in a corner surrounded by desert and with multiple AIs fighting me for space? SOP. Every open space spawing yet another source of the one herd animal in my borders? It normal for me to lose any chance of extra resources this way.

So... tell us blatantly how much of a bonus are the Civs I just spent the last ten hours techng past (eternity player) going to get here? I'm seeing modders giving no details and promising to make the game more 'balanced'... by 'something, mumble, something' involving getting the AI to speed tech for bonuses they won't explain.


So far this is looking like a reason to never enter the ocean so I don't get shafted. I can only fill in the details myself as the modders aren't answering me here, yet. So far its being filled with a complete anihilation of my play style.

Please don't respond wolfensoul9.

I did not realise you had actually asked a question in your post so I did not reply. Also I thought you were complaining about all the requests from other nations and the "ignore" option

• requiring to be pressed twice
• not lasting long enough

both of which I agree need fixing. There also needs to be more changes to diplomacy but that is a discussion on another thread.

IIRC The answer is actually very little. Using "you" to mean from the perspective of the behind nation. It depends on

• the Era difference
• how many nations "you" know that have the tech

If the tech "you" are studying is in the same Era as the leader then you get no reduction in cost. You get a bigger reduction the further behind the Era of the tech is.

"You" get a further reduction in the cost of the tech based on how many other nations "you" know that have the tech.

Edit This meas that if the leader is in the Renaissance and the last nation is in the Prehistoric then that last nation should get o the Classical/Medieval before the Leader finishes the Modern era.

 

[Acularius]

Personally I'm rather keen on the idea of the tech diffusion thing.
Even if the forces on top are opposed to the idea of change and the introduction of new ideas and technologies, eventually those lower on the food chain will go out there and do something about it, definitely if it improves their way of life.
Which is one reason I was fond of the State vs Private system that was used in the game 'Distant Worlds' although tech research was handled by the state, a lot of other things that generally were not strategic in nature was handle by the 'Private' system.

Either way, if the borders are porous enough (and both sides willing enough), or if the idea is amazing enough to give an advantage. It WILL spread. Like the concept of '0', or gunpowder, or concepts in medicine, etc.
Gunpowder was developed in China, even with the restrictions placed upon the knowledge, the Koreans not only managed to learn of it, but improve upon the formula. Eventually, through good ol' use of the stuff, it began to travel west. Pretty sure Gunpowder was not independently developed in Europe itself, but was brought forth from the East.

Tech Diffusion happens, its not going to punish the player by having the AI on par with him, but it would allow neighbours of a well playing player to stay at least SOMEWHAT competitive, within 10 techs gap... NOT a easy 20 tech gap that I can easily manage on Diety from a good starting position compared to the next leading competitor. Most of the time, I purposely SLOW my tech research in order for the AI to catch up and still 'threaten' me. Self imposed 'complacency' of the state if you will. [Which is my given understanding of the situation]

If this was already discussed in depth, ignore.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thank you modder for completely ignoring my posts. Thank you so much for ignoring my concerns. It feels great to be ignored and here epic vagueness in response.

Seriously... if I end up being in contact with 49 of Civs... exactly how much of a tech bonus to we all get? Because this concern is being ignored in favor of bickering in evasion patterns with wolfensoul9. Who should not respond to this.

Let me try again... I'm a Leader fan. The entire point is to get ahead in ... I also mostly end up shafted with starting locations. Small forested artic area start? I have to get artic promtions to explore. Tiny penisula (less than 20 squares on a huge map) cut off by a random mountain occuping the single piece of connecting land? No animals and no exploring till I get rafts. Trapped in a corner surrounded by desert and with multiple AIs fighting me for space? SOP. Every open space spawing yet another source of the one herd animal in my borders? It normal for me to lose any chance of extra resources this way.

So... tell us blatantly how much of a bonus are the Civs I just spent the last ten hours techng past (eternity player) going to get here? I'm seeing modders giving no details and promising to make the game more 'balanced'... by 'something, mumble, something' involving getting the AI to speed tech for bonuses they won't explain.


So far this is looking like a reason to never enter the ocean so I don't get shafted. I can only fill in the details myself as the modders aren't answering me here, yet. So far its being filled with a complete anihilation of my play style.

Please don't respond wolfensoul9.

I rarely see any measurable effect from tech diffusion so my answer to your question is as it usually is if I haven't given an answer: I don't know. All I can really say is... it should be a hell of a lot more potent than it is currently because even with it on I can end up attacking the next most powerful nation while they have Longbowmen and I've got tanks. Makes for a boring f'n game after the Medieval Era. Exciting up to that point, boring forever after.

Furthermore, if you have more research than your opponents, you'll still power ahead of them no matter how powerful tech diffusion becomes. It just means the faster you are gaining on them, the less fast they fall behind.

 

[wolfensoul9]

I did not realise you had actually asked a question in your post so I did not reply.

It was at the very end of his post...

"So I ask unto the Scientific Leader haters... If I'm in contact with 49 other leader that aren't minor civs... how fast does the worse tech level guy catch up to me if I have a 100 tech lead on him? 200?"

I too would like to know the hard numbers behind it. One era behind, 20% reduction? Two eras 40% reduction? What?

Also, if you are not aware that the civ that is farthest ahead in science even exists, do you get the reduction based on him? Or is it only based on civs you know?

 

[Necratoid]

See my issue here is the entire point of this thread is apparently up the power of tech diffusion. I use tech diffusion. I don't mind minor bonuses for techs being well known. That makes perfect sense. My issue is that the starting posts within the thread went on and on about tech diffusion being altered into some kind of game changer. Basically tech diffusion being altered into some kind of 'great equalizer' level antiplayer weapon.

I've been asking for the specifics of the new parameters tech diffusion was being altered to... somehow this degenerated into bickering in loops with wolfensoul9. The reason I used the mega AI Civ that spiritual leader had is its a real example of me ending up with 30+ Civ in contact with me.

So what is the new level tech diffusion is being altered to and how does it compare to what is happening now? My last real game in vanilla v26 Yoroba went from 19 turns (eternity) to 16 turns within 5 turns when I finished the research I was on. Some of that could be new buldings got in the meantime. Though the effect was actually notable. This level doesn't bug me at all.

So, as wolfensoul9 alreadyreasked my questions... I'll echo them.

1. What is the current formula?
2. What is proposed way this formula is being changed?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The formula is the one that is being currently used and the parameters are being adjusted as ls612 suggested. That is all the first post is saying.

Look at the documentation in the Documents folder under revolutions iirc for more details.

 

[Necratoid]

Funny story... I only can guess at what that means... which is the issue. I don't understand the coding language. From what I can tell two numbers go down and one goes up. Which means little to me.

I see 3 numbers that go into some formula I don't actually know. THis makes them useless for me to draw conclusions from without learning the coding language and mugging the code for the data. The first post does start with this quote:

This in essence would mean that one very powerful (and far ahead) civ would provide more tech welfare to it's neighbors than it is currently, while having several civs ahead of you would still yield the same result in the long run, if I understand it correctly. Thoughts?

Which means that me... All Leaders must be made useless! Its the only way to be fair at all!!!

So again... how bad will changing these value effect me the leader player who gets ahead after making nup for a terrible starting location? So far it looks like a blatant attempt to make my playstyle die horribly to the public dole.