Open borders always "impossible"

[Magean]

Hi all,

I'm back playing the mod after a few months out. During the second wave of exploration, when caravels, explorers and open borders agreements become available, I noticed all AIs declared open borders as "impossible". All of them.

Sure, I had been a horrible rampaging warmonger on my home continent, and a number of people who had known me for a long time had good reasons to hate and fear me. Their unconditional refusal made sense.

At the same time, other AIs I met later and hadn't accumulated much warmongering penalty with also had "impossible" open borders. For example, looking at the numbers from transparent diplomacy, I could see I had just -6 or -7 from warmongering toward the Zulus or Poland. Both refused to open borders. Could it be that they did so because I was score leader and had two vassals already?

In a way it makes sense: as a player, I don't like opening my borders either, out of fear of tourism and missionaries. However, I wonder if there's a way to barter open borders with people who don't hate me now. I need to explore overseas after all.

Also, isn't it a big nerf on Brazil? I'm not playing it right now, but bandeirantes become sort of useless if the AI is so isolationist...

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Txurce]

You pretty much need a DoF to get OB. If the AI hate you, they won't even want you to open your own borders. If they're basically neutral toward you, they may ask for OB, but not give them.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and seems needlessly difficult... especially since the change was made because humans wwre exploiting giving, but not taking OB. That can still be exploited, although not as much. The price paid for a modest downtick there is that it's sometimes very difficult to move units around the map.

 

[Enginseer]

I'm back playing the mod after a few months out. During the second wave of exploration, when caravels, explorers and open borders agreements become available, I noticed all AIs declared open borders as "impossible". All of them.

Sure, I had been a horrible rampaging warmonger on my home continent, and a number of people who had known me for a long time had good reasons to hate and fear me. Their unconditional refusal made sense.

Historically last time the Byzantium granted a temporary open border to a certain faction, Constantinople was sacked or something...

Also remembered one of those time where Waffles simply refused open borders to Sausages or something because Sausages wanted to invade Wine and Cheese but didn't want to go through the citadel blockade hassle.. so I think they just declared war or something.

 

[Magean]

You pretty much need a DoF to get OB. If the AI hate you, they won't even want you to open your own borders. If they're basically neutral toward you, they may ask for OB, but not give them.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and seems needlessly difficult... especially since the change was made because humans wwre exploiting giving, but not taking OB. That can still be exploited, although not as much. The price paid for a modest downtick there is that it's sometimes very difficult to move units around the map.

Aaah, thanks. Didn't know it had become that difficult. It looks like a bit of a stretch to have made it impossible. Maybe more expansive than before, yeah certainly. But outright impossible? As you said, going through AI land can hardly be exploited.

Does demanding OB work better? Or is it as difficult as demanding a city?

Historically last time the Byzantium granted a temporary open border to a certain faction, Constantinople was sacked or something...

Had the crusaders had OB with Byzantium, upon sacking Constantinople they would have been teleported at random locations around it, from Bulgaria to Rum Sultanate Unless an invisible wall of force would simply have prevented them from DoW'ing until all of their troops had been evacuated from Byzantium.

 

[Funak]

Honestly, I cans see the historical reason why OBs would be rare, but they just don't work that well in the game. The way civ works kinda needs open borders with at least some civs to not collapse into itself.

I'm not saying every AI should give me OBs no matter what, but some at least halfway friendly should probably agree to swap open borders.

 

[Magean]

Honestly, I cans see the historical reason why OBs would be rare, but they just don't work that well in the game. The way civ works kinda needs open borders with at least some civs to not collapse into itself.

I'm not saying every AI should give me OBs no matter what, but some at least halfway friendly should probably agree to swap open borders.

Indeed, restrictive OB makes exploration unreasonably difficult. And with map trade being available that late...
Ideally, there should be two degrees of OB: one for civilian units + scouts and the other for armies. It'd make sense roleplay-wise and gameplay-wise. However, the mod being feature-complete, what I'd like to see is the return of more accessible OB, though maybe somewhat more restrictive than before (the AI was arguably too open to it).

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Vassals have to give open borders. I don't see the problem.

 

[Funak]

Indeed, restrictive OB makes exploration unreasonably difficult. And with map trade being available that late...
Ideally, there should be two degrees of OB: one for civilian units + scouts and the other for armies. It'd make sense roleplay-wise and gameplay-wise. However, the mod being feature-complete, what I'd like to see is the return of more accessible OB, though maybe somewhat more restrictive than before (the AI was arguably too open to it).

I would kinda be fine with this low OB game, if some other way to discover other civ's cites were implemented.
Like I suggested ages ago to have trade-routes to a civ have a chance to discover other cities connected to the same trade network (makes sense, traders talk to each other, locations are fairly standard).

 

[emdash]

Yeah, I never have trouble getting OB, the AI doesn't respect me. haha. Well, I mean sometimes they won't let me if I have bullied them, but generally I don't bully. Sometimes they are impossible w/ embassy, too, so... they can just be stubborn. I've never felt getting OB was hard, though. But yea it might have to do with A: trying to be friendly with my neighbors in most cases (I find it better to war people far away. haha, but I do war on my neighbors if they settle close.) and B. rarely 'needing' ob... I just take it when they give it to me, and they all seem to.

Otoh, this could be a map size issue, too. I play on Huge/12 civs. I never have a problem discovering other people, OB is more just for convenience. I also try to settle in a way that prevents AI from popping a city in the middle of my roads.

@ trade route discovery: seems cool.

 

[Workerspam]

I'd be fine with treating Open Borders like Research Agreements; always a mutual trade, with incentives optional depending on how each party values the trade. Would remove the potential to exploit asymmetrical OBs (and trade requests for OBs with no intent to reciprocate, I nice QoL improvement).

Vassal OBs could potentially remain one sided. One way Open Borders negotiated in peace deals might last only for the duration of the peace deal.

 

[Dawnpromise]

I'm okay with 'military' units and missionaries being denied access but I'd like to see a change to allow scouts in at least. I couldn't found world congress last game because Poland was landlocked by it's neighbors.

 

[Galbias]

I'd be fine with treating Open Borders like Research Agreements; always a mutual trade, with incentives optional depending on how each party values the trade. Would remove the potential to exploit asymmetrical OBs (and trade requests for OBs with no intent to reciprocate, I nice QoL improvement).

Vassal OBs could potentially remain one sided. One way Open Borders negotiated in peace deals might last only for the duration of the peace deal.

I did have an AI refuse my free offer of Open Borders a game or two ago late in the game when I was going for culture victory, so they seem to have some ability to avoid exploitation. I also can't remember who it was, so I guess it's possible they just might not have liked me.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'm happy with the open borders in the early August version.

 

[Magean]

I'm okay with 'military' units and missionaries being denied access but I'd like to see a change to allow scouts in at least. I couldn't found world congress last game because Poland was landlocked by it's neighbors.

Plus, exploration is a very enjoyable part of the game, both when it's done early on and later on, when you discover continents covered with cities... No open borders kills that fun part.

 

[bigcat88]

Plus, exploration is a very enjoyable part of the game, both when it's done early on and later on, when you discover continents covered with cities... No open borders kills that fun part.

In my last game, I just buy map for another continent. And then was waiting for some friendship after that OpenBorders and at least meet last 2 CS in game.

 

[kawyua]

great diplomats are great explorers with 6 movement points and the ability to cross over borders freely. Ever since the open border changes, I've been relying on them to explore literally everything.

Brazil's bandeirantes are pretty decent despite the issue of open borders. I think they are a pretty top tier as a civ already, so... it is really just a minor annoyance.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

U can also use missionaries to explore.

 

[Magean]

In my last game, I just buy map for another continent. And then was waiting for some friendship after that OpenBorders and at least meet last 2 CS in game.

Map exchange still unlocks at military science, right? That's quite late, isn't it? I mean, it was fine before, but in the current setup...

 

[Rowger]

I just use a mod that makes scouts ignore borders and all that hassle is gone.

 

[Rowger]

great diplomats are great explorers with 6 movement points and the ability to cross over borders freely. Ever since the open border changes, I've been relying on them to explore literally everything.

Brazil's bandeirantes are pretty decent despite the issue of open borders. I think they are a pretty top tier as a civ already, so... it is really just a minor annoyance.

Great Explorers? Is that a thing?