Optimized production strategy

[Tabarnak]

Just reached 350 hammers/turn by turn 120 in an abundant resource game. Did a 2 phase expansion, first to 5 cities then to 9 cities. There were probably at least 20 pastures in my empire

The reason for the 2nd phase is to build some extra universities and science specialists. None of these cities should get past pop 2-3.

How do you reach so much hammers?

You need an average of 30-35 hammers per city. That's 5 mines under chemistry combined with workshops under golden ages. Or 3-4 mines with lot of pastures. I never got such land so far. And happiness is often a problem before i can reach theocracy. If not playing France and somebody has built the Oracle, it's hard to get this policy soon enough to avoid building some happiness buildings.

You need to hire citizens for scientists as well. In my Egypt game presented in this thread, i have 250 hammers with 10 or so cities under golden ages and i built stables as well. My capital alone had 77 hpt.

New cities post 70 turns with new workshops can reach 15-20 hammers someday but they have to grow for some extra turns and workers have still some work to do.

Edit : But i only built 4 main cities, annexed 2 cities and puppeted the rest. If i can build 8-9 cities from my own, maybe i can reach near 300 hpt by turn 125-130 but not much...

Take some pictures if you can next time.

 

[Smote]

I can't remember my starting build order exactly, it was a little weird. It was something like Worker Worker Settler Water Mill Worker Warrior Settler Settler, with 1 or 2 bought warriors along the way.

I did build happiness buildings that game, along with getting Theocracy.

I built a lot of early aqueducts, which helped me to eventually get 4 size 12+ (I think 2nd city reached 18!) cities, all with superb production. 2 of them were making 1 turn musketeers.

The land was very hilly. The 4-5 mines/workshops/pastures/golden age seems accurate. I had 4 cities that were all "excellent caliber". At the end there, I had my 2nd happiness golden age, stacked with Piety golden age, stacked with Taj Mahal [Great Engineer] for a grand total of 36 turns of golden age.

I managed to snipe a rival's Great Scientist with an amphibious attack from a Spearman immediately after getting Astronomy, which slowed down his Rifling or Navigation tech.

I was on my own continent, and had so many hammers I built about every wonder that was not in the Education tree while I was waiting for Astronomy (including Chichen Itza, Notre Dame, etc).

I did not build NC until turn 65 or so. Still managed ok beakers, due to the early aqueducts and population.

I built Collos/Circus Maximus as well as Notre Dame and Theocracy, which enabled me to build 4 new cities without worrying about impeding growth.

My first medieval techs were Currency, then Engineering (love aqueducts!), then Civil Service, then Metal Casting, then Education. Aqueducts are equivalent to +66% growth, so the earlier you can get them, the better for hammers. Currency first was a necessity because my Civ had about 70 MFG and 28 GNP sometime around turn 50-60, causing my maintenance costs to skyrocket

I would have preferred Metal Casting first, but my late NC caused me to not have time to squeeze it in.

One of the late cities was actually a Seaport city, rather than an ICS university city. It immediately upon founding bought a Seaport, a Lighthouse, and an Aqueduct, to make immediate use of the 6 Fish/1 Pearls, that would have been the capitals had I not moved it away from the coast (I preferred the hills and sheep for early game, instead of fish which do not help you immediately. Its production rose quite fast, as the 5F/2H fish tiles are wonderful

The land was... basically imagine the perfect land. Capital had 7 sheep, and my 2nd city (~10 tiles away) had a different 7 or so sheep. Both also were built on hills by rivers for the Water Mill and early production. The other two cities had riverside farms and a ton of hills. The 5th initial city was placed in Tundra on Furs, and did not build an aqueduct or ever get beyond size 6. It used some hills and deer.

 

[Tabarnak]

Your own continent...it explains a lot. I don't really bother for aqueduc since i usually tech engineering somewhat late. Aqueduc is 80 hammers cost, same as workshops and markets.

But yeah i follow what you said and you opened an interesting strat for isolated civs. This approach should deserve his own thread. Optimized strategy for isolated starts or something.

 

[Earthstrike]

Tabernak, just curious, what is your online name? Based on my online experiences, I've generally found liverty to be a much more powerful tree in the long run than tradition and I'd be curious to play in a game with you or see if I've played in a game against you before.

 

[Tabarnak]

Tabernak, just curious, what is your online name? Based on my online experiences, I've generally found liverty to be a much more powerful tree in the long run than tradition and I'd be curious to play in a game with you or see if I've played in a game against you before.

Well it always depends of game settings. Sometimes Liberty owns Tradition. My steam name is Tabarnak2010. I find Liberty better for short term strats. Maybe it's our play style after all.

Post a game with screenshots and we will compare.

 

[Earthstrike]

I will certainly do that during the course of my next MP game.

 

[Earthstrike]

Hey, does this site have any kind of private messaging feature? I want to send you something in private tabernak. Sorry if this messes up the thread.

 

[Civsassin]

The land was... basically imagine the perfect land. Capital had 7 sheep, and my 2nd city (~10 tiles away) had a different 7 or so sheep. Both also were built on hills by rivers for the Water Mill and early production. The other two cities had riverside farms and a ton of hills. The 5th initial city was placed in Tundra on Furs, and did not build an aqueduct or ever get beyond size 6. It used some hills and deer.

Wow! I've never seen a plot with seven sheep, especially two plots.

 

[Tabarnak]

Wow! I've never seen a plot with seven sheep, especially two plots.

Abundant ressources explains this. Combine this with Legendary start and you are in heaven lol

 

[Civsassin]

Abundant ressources explains this. Combine this with Legendary start and you are in heaven lol

I've never tried those settings. Perhaps I should give them a try.

 

[Smote]

I like tradition for ancient start. I find Liberty is best for classical. Liberty or Commerce is best for medieval, rennaissance. Order best for Industrial, Modern, Future.

 

[Smote]

A multiplayer civ5 player has to ask themselves 3 questions, constantly:

1. Am I safe from my opponents right now?
2. Do I want more production or more research?
3. What is the fastest way to get more production or more research?

 

[MasterMishi]

I used to liberty rush most mp games and have tested variations of builds using the tradition tree. I find it often makes me top in hammers if not from the off then sooner rather than later. it sets up longsword or later unit assault very well due to quick builds. Sci rate is very competative also with quick unis. I am yet to lose an open mp game with this strat. I havent tested against ladder players and havent been sword rushed in any game i tested, have you?

 

[Tabarnak]

I havent tested against ladder players and havent been sword rushed in any game i tested, have you?

Around turn 30 with 3 cities you begin to lead in hammer output compared to a Liberty approach. 3 cities under LE produce more hammers than 4 Liberty cities around turn 40. This may be biased if someone build a wonder with a hammer bonus.

Sword rush? The essence of this approach is to effectively counter other sword rushes around turn 40. With more hammers, you can finally outproduce opponent in the long run.

The worst part is from turn 20 to turn 30. This is the small window where you can be warriors/spearmen rushed. But everyone who want to expand first are affected. With Liberty you can stop expanding earlier but the window opportunity to rush an LE approach is very small. Just watch carefully these turns. You can always settle ''behind'' and not to close and build up a nice army before libraries to conquer later.

If 6 iron or more, capital can spam 2-3 more swordmen and you can throw like 6 swordmen and 1-2 spearmen around turn 50. With so much units, an upgraded scout to archer is very very useful because you can easily protect him behind your wall of units walking in ennemy territory.

New settled cities should spot a sheep or 2 if possible. 6 hammers in only 3 turns of growth is simply awesome.

I usually stop growing cities at pop4 and work best hammer tiles as possible. A 4 pop city can easily work 3 mines alone or multiple pastures and growing. Granaries and watermills let cities to continue to grow later.

 

[Smote]

Optimal # cities : #luxuries +1.

I find optimal # cities = # luxuries myself. This is probably because France gets LE earlier and I favor things like water mills and granaries it seems earlier than you do. I usually regret building a 5th or 6th city before most/all national wonders are done (due to increased unhappiness and social policy cost and slowing down of national wonders). I usually get theocracy about the same time that the national wonders are done, which means its time to re-expand (or conquer).

Lately, I have been getting NC later then this as well. Fighting vs a few longswords with horsemen is ok, as long as I have significantly more production than my opponent.

I managed Chivalry by turn 68 my last ironless multiplayer game

I agree landed elite > liberty in ancient era start. Liberty > LE in classical, since you get that settler turn 0!

 

[Tabarnak]

The +1 come from an average of 2 circuses per game. In some games, you can be stuck with only 3 luxuries. In the beginning 3 luxuries is enough for 4 cities until they reach 4-5 pop. But yeah the more the better.

 

[Smote]

My last game was 6 player small/classical/OCC/pangaea. I chose egypt, and had a very hilly start with ~6 river tiles, ~6 additional fresh water tiles (next to lakes). I also had 6 iron. Probably about 12-16 hills, and 3 pastures.

Because of my production heavy start in a OCC game, I knew I would not be able to compete with other players for science. This meant war until victory, once I research steel.

First guy I attacked had a swordsman, which promptly died. He quickly mustered out a catapult followed by two crossbows. He managed to win some lag battles and kill 3 longswords, but my production overcame his, once I pillaged his iron and his defensive roads, and finished the road to his territory.

He fell. I turned my sights on my greatest opponent, the one whose crop yield was about 25 more than mine (very significant implications for late game in OCC). I quickly ran into my 6 iron block, and, after building iron works, changed production to crossbows. @ turn 100, 6 LS + 4 crossbows encountered 3 rifles. However, this opponent did not have a great general, and made the great mistake of not having a heroic epic constructed (early game, high crop yield implies low production, so he was probably scrambling to keep up). He managed to kill 2 LS and a crossbow with his 3 rifles, and built 3 more eventually, which usually killed a unit before dying to a LS or crossbow.

However, I had a road to his base, and filled whatever gap was created in my force with my significant amounts of production. My LSs and crossbows soon took out his power 32 city.

I continued on to my next opponent, who had Himeji and Great Wall constructed. By this time, I managed to use a great scientist and oxford to get to Rifling myself. I upgraded 3 LS to rifles, and had them heal up. I had 25 hexes of maintenance from my road network to opponents, at this point. 2-turn morale/2x upgraded rifles were continually being made from my capital. This opponent quickly fell to a circle of crossbows and rifles, and a cannon, that attacked his capital from all sides.

The only opponents left were behind, for whatever reason, and didn't manage to have Rifling, and the game was over from there.

 

[Smote]

Managed a 3 horse 2 Warrior rush on turn 38. The France I was targetting already had 4 cities (I only had 2), but he immediately lost his first swordsman, and then an iron mine, quickly followed by a city. He then resigned. Another example of LE > Liberty

 

[Tabarnak]

Managed a 3 horse 2 Warrior rush on turn 38. The France I was targetting already had 4 cities (I only had 2), but he immediately lost his first swordsman, and then an iron mine, quickly followed by a city. He then resigned. Another example of LE > Liberty

Turn 38...if i don't have a culture ruin or France i usually get LE around turn 35. The gap begins to be more obvious more around turn 50. But if you got a culture ruin...

 

[DRJ]

My very own optimized production strategy is as followed:

WORKER/city to size 3->SETTLER/LIBRARY or GRANARY/SETTLER

I rush-buy scout or warrior if I need, my starting warrior makes a 10-turn crescent exploring tour, sometimes getting 2 huts; he's home shortly after WORKER is finished, protecting the improvements.

Playing with France I usually get landed elite a few turns before 1st settler is ready (that is on QUICK), Capital then grows to 5 during library/granary is built.

Sometimes I rushbuy a library in 2cnd city and then delay to found 3rd city (but keep in mind to move SETTLER + ESCORT to the spot you want to build later, and build quickly in case you see an other settler aproaching the spot or barbs killing escort) for a fast National College in Capital, that can really be worth it! Having a good production site, some adequate GNP as well as superior military dealing with barbs while at the same time being able to improve key plots and developing a road network is needed to being fully able to milk this strategy.

Downside: If you get dowed, you have to be able to shift production to war, that might lose some turns, but thats what youre ahead at that point anyway. You will see you recover in no-time. Your enemy usually loses more than you cause hes in attack. Only winners in this case are the other MP-players. But maybe they have their own problems.