Organized is underrated

[sylvanllewelyn]

I feel that in the final analysis, organized is the best trait, both in multiplayer and single player. No-one's against it, I know, but I still feel that it's better than aggressive, better than financial, possibly the best, always. Here's why:

War:
a] whipping gives you 30 hammers a pop, to finish off the building (ceiling)
b] pop-rushing has a double-population penalty if you want to rush a building immediately (or double-gold for universal sufferage)
c] the penalty does NOT apply when the city has just gone out of resistance
d] courthouses take 4 pop to whip out
e] you may only sacrifice half your population, round down, to rush a building, at most
f] when you capture a city, the city loses 1 pop. That means in order to whip out a courthouse in a captured city immediately and save you from financial ruin, your target city needs to be at least 9 population
g] if you are organized, your target city only has to be 5 pop. This moves your courthouse-suppoted conquest from medieval to ancient age. Rather than being forced to raze, you can now keep everything you conquer, within reason.

Peace:
- courthouses and state property can greatly reduce your city maintenance, but civic upkeep can only be reduced by organized trait
- your population, and hence your production and commerce, is about the square of your land area, because your population size is basically limited by your hapiness, which is basically the variety of hapiness resources you have. And that's a rough relationship with your land area, the area your cultural borders cover.
- Civic upkeep increases by population, as techs become more expensive and your empire population grows at a square relationship, in the long run organized will save more gold than financial eventually.

 

[None_Existant]

huh I never looked at it that way. That puts Tokugawa and Washington in a whole new light. And possibly Roosevelt - and others. Thx

 

[Godel]

ORG is one of my favourite traits. It is even more powerful now with cheap factories.

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

Organized is really good. Last game I played with Washington and could finance my expansion easily.

 

[Xanikk999]

In one of my rare posts in this sub-forum i shall say..

Organized is my second favorite trait next to financial. Spiritual is a close third.

It is very useful, you can expand faster in the early game because you dont need to build up your economy as fast before building more cities.

Early land grabbing is very useful.

 

[futurehermit]

Organized is a good trait. There are better ones imo, but it is good, no doubt.

 

[Priah]

Thing is on lower difficulty levels organized really doesnt shine as much. Theres a reason theres no civ that is organized/financial, that would be absolutly insane. In my book financial and organized are just about equal, depending on how much warmongering you do. Personally, I love organized/charasmatic.

 

[Calder]

Half production time spent on Courthouses (easier to whip, less city maintenace earlier) coupled with 50% civic upkeep, is a powerful recipe for early domination victories. Probably not so useful for conquest victories where you'd be raising more cities than keeping (unless you do what I do and turn off domination and time victories).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

That's why Augustus is such a powerful leader. Creative means no need to build monuments or libraries, organized to whip out those courthouses, legions to take over the (ancient) world. I don't know: is creative or aggressive better for warmongering? Aggressive is useful against humans I guess.

But really, the main point I'm trying to make in this thread is that organized is way better than financial, even in terms of making gold.

 

[Calder]

That's why Augustus is such a powerful leader. Creative means no need to build monuments or libraries, organized to whip out those courthouses, legions to take over the (ancient) world. I don't know: is creative or aggressive better for warmongering? Aggressive is useful against humans I guess.
But really, the main point I'm trying to make in this thread is that organized is way better than financial, even in terms of making gold.

I would say the organised trait looks to finance your war effort better than the Financial trait, and when coupled with aggressive or imperialistic (or spiritual for that matter) creates a mean war machine. I'd usually whip courthouses first, followed by cheap theatres for culture (rather than depending on the creative trait which I like for for cultural victories). But if your goal isn't total warmungering I'd pick Financial over Organised since you're not worried about financing a huge empire, but can still afford a decent military.

 

[Quetzal513]

So now that everyone is coming out here and praising organized, maybe it isn't so underratted?

Thing is on lower difficulty levels organized really doesnt shine as much...

I couldn't agree more. The higher up you go the better organized seems to be. I seem to remember in Civ3 there were a number of traits that really came into their own at different difficulty levels.

The thing I love about organized over financial is that you really don't have to think about it. Financial takes a lot more thought to really get the most out of it, making sure you have lots of 2 commerce tiles. Organized does more of the work for you; it's great.

 

[zooropa86]

Peace:
- courthouses and state property can greatly reduce your city maintenance, but civic upkeep can only be reduced by organized trait
- your population, and hence your production and commerce, is about the square of your land area, because your population size is basically limited by your hapiness, which is basically the variety of hapiness resources you have. And that's a rough relationship with your land area, the area your cultural borders cover.
- Civic upkeep increases by population, as techs become more expensive and your empire population grows at a square relationship, in the long run organized will save more gold than financial eventually.

just nit picking a bit:

so u say pop is proportional to the square of area? seems to me its quite a linear relationship... it doesnt matter though, the importance is still valid.

one should point out however, that civic upkeep really only starts to get large in the late game, so i would guess its not THAT important early on if someone is indeed going for an early victory. i guess the raw amount of upkeep by itself doesnt matter, does anyone konw how it changes relative to total income throughout the game?

 

[uberfish]

I prefer financial and philosophical as economic traits in general. Their effects make themselves felt earlier, allowing you to create a technological edge in the most important period of the game.

I do NOT agree that organised is better on higher levels, the maintenance cost increase is counterbalanced by the fact that it takes longer to get to the same number of cities on higher levels as the AIs put up more resistance.

 

[bassist2119]

Thing is on lower difficulty levels organized really doesnt shine as much. Theres a reason theres no civ that is organized/financial, that would be absolutly insane. In my book financial and organized are just about equal, depending on how much warmongering you do. Personally, I love organized/charasmatic.

The higher the difficulty, the more Organized starts to outshine financial. Furthermore, Financial pins you in to a CE, whereas organized gives you flexibility for CE, SE, or mixed.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I feel one does more warmongering on higher levels. About being counter-balanced by taking cities slower, I admit I missed that point. Sorry everyone.

However, at least in the early game, I feel that being able to whip out a courthouse immediately upon capturing a city rather than having to wait for your workers to get there, chop some trees, and THEN whip (or even not being able to, as the unhappy citizens starved to death), translates to a kind of gold saving that you can't overcome with more cottages, due to hapiness limits. I'm thinking of a way to test this, but I'm out of ideas for the moment.

 

[Antilogic]

The higher the difficulty, the more Organized starts to outshine financial. Furthermore, Financial pins you in to a CE, whereas organized gives you flexibility for CE, SE, or mixed.

Being a cottage player, this doesn't bother me the least bit.

A lot has already been said, but I just have to say that I was surprised to find that Organized was getting a boost in the patch. I thought it was fine as is.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

Theres a reason theres no civ that is organized/financial, that would be absolutly insane.

Washington is Org/Fin in Vanilla.

 

[ArneHD]

I would just like to note that with the .08 patch for warlords, Expansive is one of my favourite traits, in order to get as many workers out as possible. It's use does fade after a while, yes, but those extra workers can give you a boon to start with.

 

[Spitefire]

now unless someone has a more accurate figure of the numbers to correct me with i would like to point out that with a courthouse citys have a 75% upkeep reduction with org trait, the only none org civ to come close to that kind of money saveings is the zulu with the combined effect of 70% on there UB barracks haveing 20% and courthouse normal 50%.

Unless im wrong traits and buildings dont combine there % numbers the same way civics/buildings civic/civic or buildings/buildings do, an example is the zero War Weariness from holding the Nation wonder a jail and police state combined.

 

[CivDude86]

Civic upkeep != city maintence
Organized halves civic upkeep which is determined by population and upkeep cost of each civic.