Organized is underrated

[bassist2119]

Being a cottage player, this doesn't bother me the least bit.

A lot has already been said, but I just have to say that I was surprised to find that Organized was getting a boost in the patch. I thought it was fine as is.

Agree on both points - Cottage player here too, and Org usually results in earlier expansion and better early power position, which makes winning a whole lot easier. Point was is that it's an economic based trait, and pretty much the best trait for both, save possibly PHI for SE

Regarding the boost, that's one of the reasons that I''ve been procrastinating the latest patch. I imagine if and when I do, I'll have to play organized civs a diff level or two higher than all the rest...

 

[cabert]

now unless someone has a more accurate figure of the numbers to correct me with i would like to point out that with a courthouse citys have a 75% upkeep reduction with org trait, the only none org civ to come close to that kind of money saveings is the zulu with the combined effect of 70% on there UB barracks haveing 20% and courthouse normal 50%.

Unless im wrong traits and buildings dont combine there % numbers the same way civics/buildings civic/civic or buildings/buildings do, an example is the zero War Weariness from holding the Nation wonder a jail and police state combined.

you're wrong
courthouse apply a reduction of 50% to city upkeep, while organized gives a 50% reduction on civic maintenance.
You have an overall (except unit upkeep) reduction of 50%.
Which is great!

Organized really shines if you run those high maintenance civics.
And org/spi is brilliant for this : you don't look too hard on the civics cost, and just use the civics you need whenever you want. All hail Asoka.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

you're wrong
courthouse apply a reduction of 50% to city upkeep, while organized gives a 50% reduction on civic maintenance.
You have an overall (except unit upkeep) reduction of 50%.
Which is great!

Organized really shines if you run those high maintenance civics.

Ah, so it's not a 75% cost reduction. That explains why I'm over-reaching myself on my current game and my research slider has dropped to 40%.

 

[uberfish]

For SE philosophical and spiritual are much more powerful, there's a reason the SE fanatics play mostly as Gandhi.

For CE, well... organized got an extra discount building and financial lost its one for a reason.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Organised is nice, but I still prefer Financial as it tends to suit my playing style better.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

Despite using Organised on my current game, I'm still struggling to make a profit with the tech slider above 50%. I think my military may be too big. Anyway, I've just discovered Banking so with any luck the problem will right itself over time.

 

[cabert]

Despite using Organised on my current game, I'm still struggling to make a profit with the tech slider above 50%. I think my military may be too big. Anyway, I've just discovered Banking so with any luck the problem will right itself over time.

3 options :
- build those cheap courthouses
- build more cottages
- switch to caste system and run hordes of merchants.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

I'm doing 1 and 2 already, but I hadn't considered 3. I'll look into that, thanks.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I'm not particularly keen on the Merchant option myself, since I prefer to generate other types of Great People (and I also like to work my cottages rather than running specialists).

Just my two cents though.

 

[OscarWildebeest]

I'm not particularly keen on the Merchant option myself, since I prefer to generate other types of Great People (and I also like to work my cottages rather than running specialists).

Just my two cents though.

That's a reasonable counter-argument. Maybe I'll just wait for those cottages to grow. Most of them are in fairly safe territory (safe atm, anyway).

 

[OscarWildebeest]

As it turns out, the extra courthouses have done the trick. I'm up to 60% on research and I've just switched to Caste in order to run Merchants and maybe one or two more Scientists.

[EDIT: Founding Islam and building the shrine helped a bit, too... ]

 

[Antilogic]

Just a side note: I love the fact that any thread about traits involves a great many people not understanding the Organized trait. It's already been posted, but Organized affects civics, not city, maintenance. For some reason, that bonus is a little murky to most Civ players...

@uberfish: Honestly, I don't see a reason for the gaining of a cheap building for Organized--it was fine as is. I do remember loving the original Financial trait...it was so great!

 

[Aeson]

Organized gets better the higher the difficulty, because Civic costs scale by difficulty too. The Civic cost modifier was 1x on Settler, 2x on Deity, at least at release. Not sure if it's changed since then.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I used to seriously underestimate Organized. At first I mistook the -50% civic upkeep for -50% city maintenance. When I figured out that wasn't the case, I was like, "Gee, then what's the point? Screw organized." I just didn't appreciate how big an effect half-off civic upkeep can have, especially during the middle ages when I'm usually running Vassalage and/or Organized Religion. Organized gets a nice assortment of building construction bonuses too. Courthouses are an obvious plus, but fast lighthouses can be useful for fledgling coastal cities. Not to mention the new factory bonus.

On a side note, I'm really bummed that Tokugawa lost his awesome Aggressive/Organized combo in Warlords. Organized was a really good compliment to Aggressive's warmongering. Japan's UB is kind of crummy too.

 

[popejubal]

Ah, so it's not a 75% cost reduction. That explains why I'm over-reaching myself on my current game and my research slider has dropped to 40%.

You're not overreaching yourself. 40% is just fine for a while and even 20% is fine for a short time as long as you have some pre-determined way to get yourself out of that economic hole.

If you are on the verge of discovering Currency or Code of Laws or you're about to end a war and can drop your culture slider again and start extorting economic techs or you're just about to conquor a holy city with a shrine, then you're good to go. There's nothing inherantly wrong with 40% research as long as you're letting your research drop because you have a short term goal that demands it and which helps you with your long term goal.

Later in the game, more cities = more research, no matter what the theoretical upkeep is.

 

[Antilogic]

You're not overreaching yourself. 40% is just fine for a while and even 20% is fine for a short time as long as you have some pre-determined way to get yourself out of that economic hole.

If you are on the verge of discovering Currency or Code of Laws or you're about to end a war and can drop your culture slider again and start extorting economic techs or you're just about to conquor a holy city with a shrine, then you're good to go. There's nothing inherantly wrong with 40% research as long as you're letting your research drop because you have a short term goal that demands it and which helps you with your long term goal.

Later in the game, more cities = more research, no matter what the theoretical upkeep is.

Personally, I would beg to differ. 50% is my comfort zone, and running 20% for any length of time amounts to near suicide unless you are very friendly and trading with a handful of AI who won't backstab you. Unless your "short" time literally refers to less than 5 turns. I don't think I've ever dropped below 30% intentionally (unless it was future tech or otherwise at the end of the game where it didn't matter) for longer than a turn or two.

But I agree on Organized being a solid trait--I just played a round as Frederick on a Terra map...and running high cost civics like Police State in a modern final war can be a killer. And Frederick gets a bonus on his UB production--can you say incredible? I could put up those Assembly Plants in 3 or 4 turns in several cities, sometimes it took me as long as 8. I was playing on Epic speed too, for perspective on the times.

 

[lilnev]

Organized gets better the higher the difficulty, because Civic costs scale by difficulty too. The Civic cost modifier was 1x on Settler, 2x on Deity, at least at release. Not sure if it's changed since then.

iCivicUpkeepPercent
Settler 50, Chieftan 60, Warlord 70, Noble 80, Prince 90, Monarch 95, Emperor+ 100.
So I would say that the difficulty effect is pretty modest at higher levels (Deity is no higher than Emperor, and only slightly higher than Prince).

Personally, I would beg to differ. 50% is my comfort zone, and running 20% for any length of time amounts to near suicide unless you are very friendly and trading with a handful of AI who won't backstab you. Unless your "short" time literally refers to less than 5 turns. I don't think I've ever dropped below 30% intentionally (unless it was future tech or otherwise at the end of the game where it didn't matter) for longer than a turn or two.

The big exception to this is war. Your population will be down (WW and/or whipping/drafting) so you're working fewer tiles, you may have border cities with bad tiles due to pillaging, newly acquired cities aren't yet paying for themselves, and your unit and support costs are high. But if you're taking land and cities, it's quite reasonable to run at 0% or even lower (if you've bankrolled ahead of time, or you're living off pillaging or tech-selling). Once the war is done, you can (hopefully) rebound quite quickly, mainly by growing onto more tiles in your old cities and no longer having to carry unit expenses.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Giaur]

Word becoming the flesh.

1) I said that organized is nerfed, so they improved it. Trait-specified buildings are rushed faster. In Vanilla rushing courthouse for organized trait costed about 6 population. In Warlords it's 3. Also cheaper factories are proof, that organized was nerfed.

2) horse archers were nerfed. My wish was to give them 20% withroval chance and they did. Also they did 2 other changes: improved Flanking2 promo and new bulding (stables) appeared.

So I am rather happy with the path of thinking of the creators.

Now my wish is to improve Jags a little and nerfe Praets.

 

[lilnev]

Now my wish is to improve Jags a little and nerfe Praets.

Amen.

lilnev

 

[Giaur]

Peace

Giaur

P.S. My wish is too get 300 hundred posts today