Ottomans an aggressive AI?

[danaphanous]

Latest game with the Celts and a wide/religious strategy on epic speed and Immortal AI:

The few games I've played with Suleiman we've been great friends I was pleased when I found him as my only close neighbor with a nice peninsula to myself. The continent had 6 civs included me. Rome and the Mongols close enough they were already denouncing and gearing up to war with each other. America was way down by himself and the Byzantines were on an inland lake...sorry bro!

Suleiman was all smiley, things were proceeding well, but our capitals were only about 8 hexes away even though I played a large map. Everyone is spamming settlers but I can't do this yet as I'm finishing up some infrastructure and getting to the settler part of liberty and building a happiness base. Meanwhile Suleiman builds a city toward Rome. Then another settler. I notice he is already coveting though I still only have my capital. I figured he'd take a rich river area between us next with 2 sources of truffles (my luxury monopoly) and I was racing him for it. But no...instead he sends his settler 20 turns all the way around to slip through the 1 tile into my peninsula. He settles in a crappy ice area but one that has a 6-iron lode on the seacoast. This confused me greatly until I later discovered the spot had whales and 1 truffle so it wasn't a bad choice. Just odd he was settling way down there when he had such great spots near himself.

I also didn't know it at the time but poor Suleiman was also on a lake, just a huge one that I was also a part of. As he's a naval civ this may have messed with his focus. and he saw me as his only path to the ocean as Rome was far more powerful to the north. There were 2 city spots that would have given him a northern canal out. One Rome had settled too close to use, the other a city-state had expanded over.

Little did I know he was grabbing iron because he was gearing up for war. The new city immediately began producing swordsmen. Upon the founding of my first city, he immediately insists I stop settling near myself. When I refuse he turns hostile immediately and I begin to see large numbers of swordsmen patrolling my borders. (at least 6 troops in view at all times) I settle a second city, this time back behind myself on my own peninsula since I don't want to enrage him further. He is already somehow fielding an army 4 times my size with only his 3 cities. No luck, he considers the entire peninsula "his territory" already and becomes further enraged at my audacity to settle it. 10 turns later he DOWs. He moves a lot of composite bowmen and swordsmen in for the kill on my nice second city. I am barely able to get the gold to cobble together a match for him and rush some walls. Crisis averted. You can see in one of the pics how close I was to defeat. He throws a steady stream of triremes against my city on shore near himself. Ridiculous numbers. I saw like 15 at least. Just counting his troops they exceed the total population of his whole empire so I'm confused how he can field this many without a production penalty. But no matter. Triremes are easy to crush.

He continued to hate me and would not be appeased--it doesn't help that he founds late religion (the only other on the continent). I place a 4th city this time directly backward behind my capital and the opposite direction of his. No luck, enraged he calls me up and repeats his demand I stop building cities. As my entire focus with my religion was to increase happiness options to support a wide expansion I cannot comply with this ridiculous request. Elsewhere in the world America and the Byzantines as for friendship. Even the Mongols seem to realize I'm a nice guy and a victim and a few denounce the Ottomans. The mongols begin a rampage destroying all nearby CS'es which severely limits my trading and everyone begins hating them. Half the continent goes to war with him...except the Ottomans...they continue to eye me and bide their time.

My religion is very dominant and is spreading all over the continent subduing his without me trying. He apparently doesn't appreciate this even though I haven't spread my religion directly to him. A great prophet appears and after purifying his own cities heads my way and wipes out religion in my border city. He heads for the capital next but I rush an inquisitor and eventually after a few turns of dancing he gives up and heads for a CS. I cleanse the city he converted.

According to my military advisor and the ominous motion of longswordsmen, trebuchets, etc. it will be soon and he again has massive numbers. I'm getting tired of this suspenseful waiting. He does this 3 or so times and each time he waits until he has a really great advantage like a new military tech up and has upgraded half his units and has way more than I do before attacking. He is the sneakiest enemy I think I've ever fought in this series. I see him get janissaries and I know the time will be soon. I decide, while I think I have a chance I'm gonna enrage him into attacking now, while we're on even tech footing. I literally raced with research agreements to get musketmen. To seal the deal I send a great prophet as revenge and convert all his cities. The very next turn he DOWes unfortunately I couldn't get the prophet out of there so I lost it with two converts left. Pretty lame, it would have really helped establish my religion farther out where it is stalling. He deletes it.

Thus begins the best renaissance war I've fought to date. I kill hordes of janissaries (somehow) with pikemen and the like. Mainly through tricks and traps. He moves 2-3 trebuchets in but I flank them with knights and pikemen. It's close the whole time. He keeps up the carpet of doom around my closest city for a good 10-12 turns of constant battle and those Janissaries are tough! They heal 50 hp upon killing any of my troops (yes, he nabbed that belief). He's even smart enough to send a few janissaries through my territory away from the war zone flanking my well placed crossbowmen and disbanding any workers he can catch. He fights like I would. I kill about 20 boats that he's amassed on his lake. Each turn 2 or more replace the 1 I kill and he actually manages to get my lakeshore city down close to death with just weak melee boats. I bribe Byzantines and America to fight with me and just as I think I might lose the border city, I see the last Janissary in my territory fall. This must discourage him because with just 1/5 of my city health left (it was 12 population and had a castle so he worked hard!) he packs up his remaining trebuchets and heads home. I follow pillaging everything I can find and crowd troops around his ocean city with the iron to seal the peace deal. I'm going to take it if I can. I had also bought landschnekts and was pillaging his luxuries and iron back home so he may have been having other problems. He sues for peace and gives me the city I want so I take the deal.

He is finally put in his place and all it cost me (other than years of wasted production on military and lost wonders) was a half-used GP. I think it was worth it. The last pic shows my blossoming empire doing great with a religion focused on happiness boosts and money. It took a long time to replace all the trade routes he pillaged though so he really set me back a few dozen turns. *whew* And as you can see he completely ruined my "wide" strategy, as a result of him I only have 7 cities entering the industrial era at 1550 AD. I had planned on 10 as I had calculated my religious bonus and the special Celtic opera house would allow me to field this many good ones.

Before you guys say I suck looking at the turn number, please keep in mind this is Epic Speed and I was nerfed by an Immortal AI that wanted me dead...and my first time playing a game through with Epic speed. I'm slightly embarrassed at how long techs are taking despite my focus on science, usually I tech really well, but I am better than the average civ though still behind the leaders by about 20 turns. And stealing takes forever! Ottomans really made me abandon my plans for skyrocketing science entering the Renaissance, I actually wasted 2 RA boosts and a Great Scientist to get to musketmen as I figured I'd have no chance against the Janissaries without a matching melee unit. To top off the dissapointment guess what? After 16 epic-delayed turns working on the Porcelain tower and having 6 friendships with commerice open and tithes (so think how awesome that would've been!) Aztecs beat me to it with 4 turns left. Entirely the fault of the Ottomans as I had the ability to start the thing when we were in the middle of our war. Also, Epic seems to really drag things out. Is it typical for Industrial techs to be taking 18 turns on Epic? I remember them being 9-10 in the beginning on standard so I must be doing worse than normal. But then again I've never played Epic, it made for some great wars though! Everyone has giant armies! And I guess 1550 AD entering industrial is not bad so maybe this is normal on Epic? Dunno. Any advice from you guys would be great though! I have loved this wide game and would appreciate any advice on how to play it better. I'm hoping my recent discovery of 7 coal will really boost my empire and I've started constructing factories for my best cities.

Anyway, I've never seen the Ottomans this warlike. It was clear from the outset that he wanted to wipe me out. Sorry for the long-winded story but hopefully some of you will enjoy it. I love reading you guys' stories! Is this typical behavior? I guess I understand the 20 lake triremes as he's a naval civ. Thank goodness I hadn't built much of a navy so there was little for him to capture. America never made peace with him but I never saw any troops go for him either until now. I think being in his vulnerable state was too tempting for the guy to resist. Check out all the minutemen and riflemen headed his way! I think my long-time enemy is about to get wiped off the map! And I don't even have to do it. America loves me, we have everything in common from years of research agreements, to shared religion. I even helped him win the world congress leadership when it was clear I didn't have the votes this round to capture it for myself. Hopefully he'll be a nicer neighbor but we'll see. He's got a "military that could wipe me off the planet!" too according to my annoying military advisor. Right now I've given him open borders so he has a little healing zone near his target.

 

[White Out]

The game has a 2 point give either way for each leader trait. So sometimes with bad luck he can be a 9 boldness from his original 8. His expansion is an 8 too. Very high numbers.

 

[danaphanous]

The game has a 2 point give either way for each leader trait. So sometimes with bad luck he can be a 9 boldness from his original 8. His expansion is an 8 too. Very high numbers.

huh, so I guess the only reason he was a good friend in past games was because he wasn't my near neighbor? He was my only permanent friend on the backstabbing Deity game I played as Mayans. We both were tech leaders and he was the only spaceship contender, though he couldn't quite beat me after I rushed hubble.

 

[DBuckner21]

Sully is always a pain when I'm near him. I usually play on Immortal Pangea Huge size with whatever the default number of civs and city states are for that size. When Sully is my closest neighbor, especially with capitals almost right next to each, I just park a guy near him and watch for a large army. Once its start to look threatening and within a turn or two of DOW I bribe him or another neighbor to start a war with Otts so as to prevent me from having to fight him off.

I wouldn't necessarily say he is the among the hardest to deal with, but definitely among the most irritating with his warmongering and above average expansion tendencies. He necessitates having to spend lots of money/resources to keep him fighting other people or a large defensive military which costs hammers and maintenance. At least until late game when the tech lead allows me to field a small but advanced army compared to his guys.

 

[GoStu]

Ottomans are a rather aggressive empire, but what makes ol' Sully extra dangerous is that he's smarter than the headlong assaults of the Zulu or Mongol empires. I've seen him take his time and annex two or three empires while remaining tech leader and not a total pariah.

 

[Aquaplex]

From my experience, Ottomans are fairly aggressive, especially if you let them build up. If he's in your area he will eventually come after you.

 

[Moriarte]

He keeps up the carpet of doom around my closest city for a good 10-12 turns of constant battle and those Janissaries are tough! They heal 50 hp upon killing any of my troops (yes, he nabbed that belief).

Healing 50 hp is a actually a unique ability of janissary, not a religious belief. And yeah, in my experience Suleiman is highly expansive, aggressive and a pain to deal with. Much like Shaka.

 

[Sagax]

In my games Suleiman has always been a nightmare for his neighbors. He often ends up conquering the capital or even wiping out the civ (which happens to be poor Pedro most of the time).

But if you are far away from each other then he can indeed be a reasonable ally. Too bad the world usually hates him for his early aggression, so think twice before you DoF him.

 

[danaphanous]

Thanks guys! I can see that my newness to BNW in particular is showing. He's only been in one game and I go on how I perceive them. I've never checked numbers or flavors on everyone.

 

[haniblecter]

You sounded weak. Shouldn't have been weak.

 

[LoneRebel]

You sounded weak. Shouldn't have been weak.

??

He beat back the Ottoman assaults, took one of their cities, and is doing pretty well right now. Not sure what you're talking about.

To the OP, wow, that is quite a lot of Minutemen. It's enough to make me a little leery about the Americans too. Though I suppose my fears are unfounded since you have shared religion and voted for him and all that. Like you said, it looks as though the Americans could wipe out the Ottomans for you. And hopefully they don't turn on you after that. I'm not sure, but if I were you I'd take the Ottoman cities before the Americans do, to keep America from getting too strong and bordering you on the north. But again, it may not be necessary.

America, like the Ottomans, is extremely expansionist. This does not necessarily mean warlike, and indeed America hates warmongers, but they are not above waging war themselves to secure territory they want.

 

[danaphanous]

yeah, I've kept my eye on him, and actually that little band you see there is only a small fraction of his total army. Everyone on that continent appeared to be supporting 40-50 troops minimum at all times. About 8-10 per city. I just didn't have the gold for that...at least that early.

 

[mclericp]

Yes he is
if u have him as a neighbour and if he has more army than you, you are fked big time