Pact of Nilhorn

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

This thread is here to allow for the discussion of The Pact of Nilhorn and its stength and its short coming{if any).........I myself usually make it by mid game if noone else does which is often.........not just because it is cool to have three Hill Giants to play with but because the storyline end of the wonder is so depth inspiring.......Giant Allies that never forget their friend or the place that he came from............

If Hill Giants could be recruited from the wild by the Civ when encountered and these units as well as the three that spawned be allowed promotions similiar to a warrior and at what cost to the civ........x5food? and or x3 gold?

If and It is a big almost nonexistant "if" in my veiw if an upgrade became available would a Boulder Thrower do fine?

"Hey, these people make bread and wine and share with us, like one of thier own" or "over there, bad ones must not go over there." and if the later should recruiting other hill giants from the wild by the civ seem reasonable....

It sure would teach a lesson about IMPORTANT ALLIES that rally to a cause till the end.........for other civs that neglect it.

This is just a discussion thread and not a poll.

 

[Kael]

Ive boosted the hill giants a bit in 0.14 so that they start with the combat1 and combat2 promotions. I would be willing to consider exchanging the 3 giants you are gifted with giving control of all/a certain number of a hill giants that already exist.

So instead of getting 3 hill giants the building civ would gain control of up to 6 random giants that already exist in the world? Would that make more sense? It could potentially be even less powerful if it is used in a world that has less than 6 wild giants in it (not that im against splashy^1 mechanics). I dont think I would want to include both (ie: take control if they exist, otherwise create them) and I would prefer to stick to one mechanic or the other.

Kaelspeak translation:
^1 Splashy: Mechanics that can have a large effect in some situations but little to none in others. Generally considered good if they add strategic elements although they can be difficult to balance. Not to be confused with "Chancy" mechanics that rely on heavy random components.

 

[FM_Freyland]

Not sure I have ever actually seen more than two hill giants in any particular game, on standard and large maps, but perhas the AI is more aggressive when they meet HG's (I tend to pull a "Sir Robert").

 

[eerr]

pact of the nilhorn is overpowered on epic...
it's mostly the fact that if you rush someone early with the hill giants that they really have no time to build defenses
perhaps you could give the wonder a lower strength monster but scale the number to the map size?
or at least make pact of the nilhorn adjust it's cost according to a unit rather than a wonder

 

[Kael]

pact of the nilhorn is overpowered on epic...
it's mostly the fact that if you rush someone early with the hill giants that they really have no time to build defenses
perhaps you could give the wonder a lower strength monster but scale the number to the map size?
or at least make pact of the nilhorn adjust it's cost according to a unit rather than a wonder

That confuses me because the Epic setting should make it take more time to learn the required techs and build the wonder itself.

 

[khanjackal]

less time to develop a counter defense, maybe?

what about the city creating the pact building hill giants? or something? i just never build it, i've yet to see a situation that i would need it

 

[Bad Player]

I played epic and built pact of the nilhorn and my 3 giants got wasted very quickly by enemy hunters (who had been leveled up from killing barbs). Not happy jan!

As the clan of embers I already get combat 1 for hillgiants - Kael would those extra promotions give aggressive civs combat 2 and 3 (since you already get combat 1)?

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

That confuses me because the Epic setting should make it take more time to learn the required techs and build the wonder itself.

Not that I am agreeing with the power issue cuz I'm not.
What they are talking about here and elsewhere on the Marathon, Epic issue is that even though it takes longer for everyon to make something the amount of time to produce things is higher to produce things for just about everyone during this increased time lapse the movement time for counters is the same allowing for more raids for any unit before things become less effective due to progess.........
........basically it is a vanilla strategy for building gianormous armies and then having an oppurtunity to use them before the become useless due to advancement of technology..........its fun but it takes forever and it is much more difficult to play catchup if you get behind.......the civ AI exploits the hell out of the "extra" time with each tech before obsoletion which is really just a stretching of the time that allows for more rounds of movement and attack.........there are a few extensive conversations about it if you want to know more let me know and I'll post a conector here.

REALLY it has NOTHING to do with PACK of NILHORN, anything can be exploited in this manner (and often is if you play marathon or epic and I do on occasion) but it is just as hard if an AI civ develops ANYTHING ahead of you..........prepare to be squashed for HOURS of our time and centuries of Civ time.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

less time to develop a counter defense, maybe?

what about the city creating the pact building hill giants? or something? i just never build it, i've yet to see a situation that i would need it

Most people don't probrably because they are too busy with those vital city improbements and a little expansion..........but here is something interesting.

My guess is that this was
1 put in the game to give early help.

2 the story about it was secondary and simply too beautiful to ignore or let go.

3.People playing this mod often ignore Pact for other things real early and by the time they are ready to buy it "more important things" come along to be built.

4. For some of us the STORY has overgrown the depth of its original purpose others seem to want something that seems more usefull to them YET there is something more here..........The flavor of this is truly Epic and not in the game speech sense........If the story Pact Of Nilhorn went to Theatres and it started in the dark over a campfire....it could verywell be a blockbuster.......a bard that befriends Giants and lives among them, Giants that grow to love one of another kind that they normally eat and avoid their dwellings, a promise and the tradgic, An Oath of Loyalty that remains till this day........how wonderfully poetic........yeah........Epic most definitely and the best giant story because the giants go from antagonists to protagonists. Closer to Beowulf whom gave the master Tolkein his flavor (being one of four people to be selected to learn the ancient chant in the traditional manner at the time)

Worthy.

5.When considering these things balance issues............hmmm

6.Lots of stuff I have missed or not thought of.

7.There are some ideas that may help without changing this wonder at all....

 

[Sureshot]

I've been thinking about the options available and what would suit giants most.

Hill Giants classed as animals: I can see how primitive giants might be associated with animals, but there's too many things that seem out of place that are caused by this.
Why no defensive bonus? A giant in hills should be able to pick up rocks (and considering they're Hill giants it'd make a lot of sense), and a giant in forests is going to have plenty of wood to use as clubs or projectiles.
Why not enter cultural borders? You'd think a giant would go into little villages to take what they want, or go up to walled cities and smash their walls and lift the roofs off houses.
Why a weakness against scouts and such? Can giants be subdued with Subdue Animal?

A class of units that seems to make more sense to me would be Siege units, which should give those 3 giants from the pact of nilhorn significantly more value and make more sense (like the Ents attacking Isenguard in The Two Towers). Collateral damage would make more sense as well as the ability to wreck walls and such (maybe make Treeants siege as well and lower their strength as well so they'd be more useful at causing attrition to larger forces - atm raging barbs treeants become a nuisance for Leaves religion since they're only going to kill one unit and they pop up all over the place yet are not enough to put a dent in enemy forces).

I'd find Hill Giants more useful if they were/had:
-Siege units
-Guerilla I (maybe even II)
-Lower strength (maybe 4)
-a Subdue Giant promotion that let them beat their brothers(or sisters ) in battle and get them to join them
-maybe the ability to walk on Mountains (and recieve def there, this would also make for a barb that could give a threat to Dwarves should they become able to build cities on mountains)

and then if the Pact of Nilhorn summoned even just 1 of these.

 

[Kael]

I've been thinking about the options available and what would suit giants most.

Hill Giants classed as animals: I can see how primitive giants might be associated with animals, but there's too many things that seem out of place that are caused by this.
Why no defensive bonus? A giant in hills should be able to pick up rocks (and considering they're Hill giants it'd make a lot of sense), and a giant in forests is going to have plenty of wood to use as clubs or projectiles.

Defensive bonus is more than just throwing rocks or swinging trees, but does the unit make truely effective use of its terrain. My thought was that giants are more savage and wouldnt maintain higher ground or seek advantageous ground with their tile.

Why not enter cultural borders? You'd think a giant would go into little villages to take what they want, or go up to walled cities and smash their walls and lift the roofs off houses.

This is a balance issue. I wanted the "wilds" to be more dangerous so I created units so tough that they would wipe out early cities. But I dont want players to lose just because a giant spawns nearby, so giants were made to shy to enter civilized lands.

Why a weakness against scouts and such?

I always though of this not as a weakness of the giant but as a strength of the recon units. As masters of the wild they are more knowledgable and trained with fighting the creatures in it, which makes them more effective against giants.

Can giants be subdued with Subdue Animal?

No.

A class of units that seems to make more sense to me would be Siege units, which should give those 3 giants from the pact of nilhorn significantly more value and make more sense (like the Ents attacking Isenguard in The Two Towers). Collateral damage would make more sense as well as the ability to wreck walls and such (maybe make Treeants siege as well and lower their strength as well so they'd be more useful at causing attrition to larger forces - atm raging barbs treeants become a nuisance for Leaves religion since they're only going to kill one unit and they pop up all over the place yet are not enough to put a dent in enemy forces).

I'd find Hill Giants more useful if they were/had:
-Siege units
-Guerilla I (maybe even II)
-Lower strength (maybe 4)
-a Subdue Giant promotion that let them beat their brothers(or sisters ) in battle and get them to join them
-maybe the ability to walk on Mountains (and recieve def there, this would also make for a barb that could give a threat to Dwarves should they become able to build cities on mountains)

and then if the Pact of Nilhorn summoned even just 1 of these.

The siege ability is an interesting idea. I wouldnt want then to have guerilla ability (they just dont have the training for it) or the subdue giant just because we already have enough convert mechanics. Let me think about adding a siege ability to giants.

 

[Sureshot]

Ya, I liked how early on the giants seemed to be an impossible threat out in the wild (and a good thing that they couldn't enter my borders), but once you get hunter's they become pushovers.
The bombard ability would only be useful to those with the pact, but the collateral damage would make the giants scarier out in the wild (and the withdrawl ability would give them some survivability).

 

[Kael]

Ya, I liked how early on the giants seemed to be an impossible threat out in the wild (and a good thing that they couldn't enter my borders), but once you get hunter's they become pushovers.
The bombard ability would only be useful to those with the pact, but the collateral damage would make the giants scarier out in the wild (and the withdrawl ability would give them some survivability).

If the new Natures Revolt ritual is completed the giants will be increased to 7 strength and be able to enter cultural borders.

 

[Sureshot]

Ah, good point, so the bombard ability would come in handy several ways.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

After Pack of Nilhorn is created and the giants produced you would think that the other Giants around the word might just show up to defend the way treants do and then join or leave or something the up to 6 idea is neat and fits the story ok........but didn't their favorite bard give them an incentive to learn........and........man, Wonders aren't set up so New Wonders can be dependent on them......an option like that.....a Wonder that Allows the Civ to reward the Giants with teaching food and gold would almost be necessary........and I don't know if that is anything but my creative needs looking for more story........you guys are really getting it cooking.......not another wonder but even a building.......see the Pact of Nilhorn is more powerful as a Wonder for one major reason : Its an Oath, a distinction based on decision and social agreement instead of a physical object.......it needs to be one of a kind yet more can be done with the idea.......hmm.....perhaps a tech that only can be developed by those whom have the pact.....would make other civs covent the location and desire to beseige it thus angering the giants..........oh, bloody the path of those that forget the long memories of those considered unimportant.........Giants make great underdogs to save the day.....oh sure their scary for about a hundred years then everyon overlooks and don't really learn anything of greater value until you anger them as a group.

Seriously I'm glad these discusions are happening yet I probrablily make PoN regardless because of the idea behind the story which is my real motivation for the game mechanic to support.......It is a Great Wonder Team!

 

[Sarisin]

I like the ideas for making the Hill Giants you get from the Pact stronger or with more abilities. Getting random Giants scattered over the map sounds good too, but I think Lizard Men will quickly kill them (unless a lot stronger) before you can get them to your civ.

You don't like the idea of giving a couple of culture points or a GP point to make the Pact more attractive to build?

 

[SchpailsMan]

I do build the PoN sometimes (I did in my current game), and I always end up slightly disappointed... having those giants is cool at the time they are made, but they won't keep in pace with the rest of my army : by the time I get tier 3 units, I usually end up sacrifying them to soften the defenses of a city before my main troops attack. But then again, it's an early wonder, and it doesn't cost much to build anyway (or at least for what I remember).

In my opinion, the PoN is rather fine as it is now. It's rather cheap (compared to the expected cost of actually building 3 Hill Giant units) and gives an instant benefit. The fact that HGs are not really useful in the long run is not really much of an issue... it's not that different of wonders that become obsolete when researching more advanded technologies, except that you are given the right to have a last go with them when they actually get obsoleted.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

I like the ideas for making the Hill Giants you get from the Pact stronger or with more abilities. Getting random Giants scattered over the map sounds good too, but I think Lizard Men will quickly kill them (unless a lot stronger) before you can get them to your civ.

You don't like the idea of giving a couple of culture points or a GP point to make the Pact more attractive to build?

I am all for that and for that matter if you have Hill Giants around, especially if they increase in number with a new training avaliable from the civ I think it should cost you way more for upkeep with them.
Training giant would definitely be more expensive becouse when they make a mistake it is definitely more likely to do damage and therefore gold would be needed to fix their mistakes............Food lots of Food at least x2 but I'm thinking x3 or even x5.........If the Hill giant could upgrade to a
Rock Thrower maybe like Sure Shot says as a siege unit then I would say the gold should be increase too.........I understand about Giants being underdeveloped on purpose and have read the early posts about the possiblity of Giant Civs but still believe that the Pact of Nilhorn is a bridge between the civ and the giant and feel that the Giants could learn something new and thus progress from the civ they are attached too not like a pet more like big friends that find ways to help each other even in the wild I think giants would have some skill with terrain a least a little like hill deffense 1, 2&3 they are HILL Giants afterall and it would make sense if the reason they are called that is "If that giant has any experience at all you had better take that hill before he does and lets hope he isn't a veteran because those bastards are mean"......
....and then the Pact of Nilhorn where a certain civ wisens up because of one of the bards and the relationship with the giants he left behind.....having it grow overtime depending somehow on the civ and the giant only makes sense.........I have a few reservations about the process but I am completely open to whatever anyone has to say about the ideas, man, my perspective has grown significantly on the issue since the beginning of this thread.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

I do build the PoN sometimes (I did in my current game), and I always end up slightly disappointed... having those giants is cool at the time they are made, but they won't keep in pace with the rest of my army : by the time I get tier 3 units, I usually end up sacrifying them to soften the defenses of a city before my main troops attack. But then again, it's an early wonder, and it doesn't cost much to build anyway (or at least for what I remember).

In my opinion, the PoN is rather fine as it is now. It's rather cheap (compared to the expected cost of actually building 3 Hill Giant units) and gives an instant benefit. The fact that HGs are not really useful in the long run is not really much of an issue... it's not that different of wonders that become obsolete when researching more advanded technologies, except that you are given the right to have a last go with them when they actually get obsoleted.

Maybe, your right yet please consider this The Giants Have Never Forgotten and Always come back to help..........Perhaps paying 1/2 price for a second wonder if you have PoN that will improve the Giants is in order and maybe a 3rd at high level play having the previos Wonder would just give you more Giants to work with if they are still around I dunno..........isn't brainstorming fun! If you don't have Giants could favor you for offering more to them and Scarily enough maybe even if you have the PoN they could abandon whoever has it to join the developer of the new Wonder becouse they remind the Giants of the bard and have a more similiar attitude according to giant thinking.......Blood of Nilhorn...and then Legacy of Nilhorn......or something.....I dunno their is an important issue of loyalty here.....the giants show a tremdous loyalty shouldn't the civ and without the PoN being developed the other wonders should never become available anyway........It has a definite starting place..........rearrage anything you like or dislike Team.

 

[Xuenay]

having those giants is cool at the time they are made, but they won't keep in pace with the rest of my army : by the time I get tier 3 units, I usually end up sacrifying them to soften the defenses of a city before my main troops attack.

So use them while they still are powerful?