Paganism

[Phyr_Negator]

Question: I am a big fan of all of your games. I have been playing Civilization since the first one was released and I can not wait for Civilization IV. I do have a question about Civilization IV as it relates to religion. Can your government have no state religion? If so can they influence border nations with their secular beliefs?
Sid: Hello Orie! Yes, the default is Paganism, which means there is no organized religion. At the other end of the spectrum is Free Religion and that offers tolerance of all religions. It's not possible to spread no religion where there is already religion. It's a play mechanic, but I am pretty sure it holds up that way in history as well.

Right now relating to news' info paganism is like despotism as I understand. That means it's just religion that should be changed to another as fast as possible and can't contest with other standart rels like Chr/jud/isl/other.
I don't think that's correct. Aztecs, Maya, Mongols, early Russia and Scandinavia was pagan and they were formidable powers(mentioned few of caurse). Wouldn't it be better choise to implement two forms of Paganism - Early Paganism- that will play despotism and "unorganized religion" role as start rel and Late Paganism - witch should be equal in bonuses/penalties with other religions. I can say more - Paganism can be divided to Agressiva and Defensive. Aztec paganism was surely agressive, but Russian and Scandinavian paganism CAN be called defensive as well - it wasn't spreading by missionaries and after conuests defeated nations rarely were allowed in conquerors' religion so it can be reshaped in assimilation penalty. But people was not WORSHIP Pagan Gods - they were...cooperating will be suitable word. So it can provide vulnerability to foreign religions influense bonus and military bonuses - pagans will rather die fighting but never surrender - cuz if they die as slave they will be slave at their haven!(got no info about Aztec/Maya beliefs - that's related to Scan/Rus rel). I hope Sid will change his position about paganism.

 

[RCL]

What about adding Ateism? It was (is) very much like state religion and can be also spread very well.

 

[MrMahk]

yeah, i agree with adding atheism

 

[I am the Future]

athiesm isnt a religion. It is the absence of one. No country has gone out and said "THERE IS NO RELIGION"

and dont even say comunist russia and china

 

[Dr. Salazar]

Why exactly, shouldn't we? In Either case, Albania under Enver Hoxha.

 

[Crayton]

To address the original topic: Hinduism is the game's representation of "Late Paganism". It would be foolish to add the Norse, Greek, Egyptian, Hindu, Aztec, and Roman Pantheons so game designers put the default religion as "Paganism" and put the largest surviving polytheistic religion "Hinduism" in the game.

I guess, according to game-designers the Aztecs would be "Pagan" until the arrival of the Spanish when many became "Christian"; after-all, none of the 7 world religions are based in the Americas.

I can't think of any "Pagan" religions that are not just continuations of pre-historic religion. I do know that such religions are common in the South Pacific, parts of the near-Arctic, and Southern Africa.

Hinduism is unique therefore because it was never "founded" nor had a great prophet that taught the people. On the other hand, I'm rather ignorant when it comes to Hinduism.

EDIT: Atheism needn't be in the game because there is already a civic-option that removes state-religion. That would be equatable to today's Atheistic Communisms and today's Secular Democracies.

 

[Israelite9191]

Crayton- Hate to tell you this, but Vodun (also called Voodoo) is a polytheistic religion that is a continuation (it is not a recent Neo-Pagan) of ancient African beliefs. It is the predominent religion in Togo, Benin, and Haiti (although in Haiti most people follow Vodun and Catholicism simultaniously, but Vodun is still more popular). Also, what about Shinto? While most people who practice Shinto are also Budhist, they are generally Shinto first, Budhist second. I think the polytheistic religions should be Paganism (mabey divide it by culture group or something, but it doesn't really matter), Hinduism, Vodun, Shinto, and Neo-Paganism (as a modern religion, to keep religion as a major factor on to the late game).

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Vodun alsso has large amounts of followers in Louisiana, the Dominican Republic, most of West Africa, Florida, Chicago, New York, Paris, and Montreal.

 

[Dr. Salazar]

Vodun still lags behind, not even making the top 22nd religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Present_day_religious_adherence_and_trends

 

[Crayton]

We shouldn't badger about size of religious following now.

Okay; Shinto, Voodoo, and Hinduism are all "pagan" religions that survived to today.
My point was that to choose the 7 major religions (or 8 if you wanted one added) Hinduism superceded/represents these 3 because it is the largest.

Neo-Paganism? I'm not all to familiar with this. I've heard of Wiccan, but the best I could call this is a cult or heresy of Christianity. I've heard of the Muslim parts of the world, the Hindu parts of the world, but not the Neo-Pagan parts of the World.
Enlighten me please.

 

[jwijn]

Well, I gave it a shot, but one man arguing against four gets tiring after a while (and I also have work to do ) But this is basically the same as this thread in cIV General Discussion

 

[Crayton]

True. Naming the thread: "No Religion" Option
is sure to draw people "With Religion".

I don't know what you wanted.
"Paganism" is neither of the big 7 religions.
"No State Religion" negates any religion's effects on government.
"No Religion" is, frankly, not a religion.

To address the first post: Pagan religion gets military bonuses???
Most religions had a strong military component, doubly so when engaged with heathen forces. The Muslims in Jerusalem didn't just lay down when the Christian Crusaders came, they also would die before being captured by the Europeans.
On the other hand, this is just an attribute of religion, so, I guess I made a mute point.

 

[jwijn]

Crayton,

The whole idea of including atheism (or even no religion) in the same game mechanics as the other 7 is to be able to see the spread of atheism in the same way that one could watch the spread of christianity or judaism. Oh well, I'll just mod it in then (but perhaps one of you kind CFCers could create some sort of Voltaire/scholar-looking unit as my missionary?)

 

[Desertsnow]

Hinduism is a specific form of late paganism, just as the Abrahamic faiths are specific forms of monotheism (also called Desert Monotheism). I'm with Phyr on this issue, more or less.

 

[Pounder]

I am not looking for the top 7 seven religions as they are today. I am looking for alternate histories to take place in the game.

The religions they choose are too close to each other. Judaism, Christianity and Muslim all have the same roots.

I would love to see Druidism become the dominant religion in a game or some other earth/universe/sun type worship.

There has to be better base choices. Hopefully there will be an option to shut religion off as I fear that it will become too dominant a feature in the game.

 

[MattII]

I red in National Geographic that Norse Paganism is still hanging on with its teeth (a few dozen believers at most) in Iceland, and down here in NZ I think a few people still endorse the old Maori Paganism, though I can't be sure. Pounder's right, after all, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism anyway.

 

[Hrafnkell]

Paganism would naturally be the default, but I don't agree with the process that makes all other religions an improvement on the original religions of the various civs. Christianity is not an improvement on paganism or heathenism, it is merely an alternative. We see it as inevitable that Christianity triumphed but that is only because it did. If it had not, we'd be saying right now that it was inevitable that Christianity could never triumph over the other religions. To limit paganism (and by that I mean all tribal belief systems everywhere) to a default setting that has no real value is ridiculous...all those huge temples and expensive statues were not built for nothing. And Christianity owes as much to the Hellenistic belief systems, Zoroastrianism and Mithraism as it does to Judaism, if not more...to include Judaism and exclude the rest is ridiculous.

Come on Firaxis, give the past its due. As for heathens, there are more of us than you might think and they're not limited to Iceland. The Mediterranean pagans are making a comback too. Don't count us out yet.

 

[Hrafnkell]

I red in National Geographic that Norse Paganism is still hanging on with its teeth (a few dozen believers at most) in Iceland, and down here in NZ I think a few people still endorse the old Maori Paganism, though I can't be sure. Pounder's right, after all, Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism anyway.

I would not entirely trust National Geographic...for instance, they are wed to the idea of the Mitochondrial Eve despite the many arguments against it (and you'd never know those arguments exist if you only read that magazine), and it should be noted here as well that Asatru is the only legally recognized religion in Iceland besides Protestantism and that Christianity was never more than skin deep in Iceland..."heathen" was never a bad word there.

 

[Corvex]

I've heard of the Muslim parts of the world, the Hindu parts of the world, but not the Neo-Pagan parts of the World.
Enlighten me please.

Parts of Northern Canada could probably be called 'neo-pagan.' I use the term loosely, however, since I am referring to primarily to the local natives practicing their ancestral beliefs. Since the rights and ceremonies involved are largely reconstructions (because aboriginal religion was heavily suppressed by the government and the various churches during the mid-twentieth century), these religions may be considered to be 'neo-pagan.'

As for myself, I look forward to modding-in my favourite religion in the entire history of the world: the Pythagorian Number Cult, and then converting the infidels

 

[Bluemofia]

I would like the idea of nature worship, as it was a very important religion in early civilizations.

 

[MattII]

Nature worship, is that the same as worshipping the earth mother as portrayed in Jean M. Auel's Earth Children series?