Palestinian Crisis: More than meets the eye?

[skadistic]

Why would Israel need to do that? after all they can afford to bankroll Lobby's and foundations to get support and spew loads biased, one sided information...

Yeah its the jew run media.

 

[Bast]

I'll take that as a big fat: "No, I did not read your post so I'll drone on about it"

Show me the evidence!!

 

[Bast]

Why would Israel need to do that? after all they can afford to bankroll Lobby's and foundations to get support and spew loads biased, one sided information...

Yeah, talk about stereotypes.

---

I'm glad I'm not Jewish at times. I don't think I can deal with the prejudice and the stereotypes. 2000 years of persecution isn't enough.

I'm thankful everyday that I'm not prejudiced.

 

[holy king]

No its not. But if you are saying the Israelis are the same as the hamas bomber who blows him self up on a bus is the same or that the Israeli is the same as the as the vest bomber how has a shrapnel bomb coated in rat poison to cause bleeding and extend the effective range of his civilian killing device then you have issues. No one makes them blow up civilians but then selves. They could try other means like maybe peace? They should build buildings not bombs. Teach science not hate. Its up to the pallies to stop being terrorists they can only blame them selfs.

just because they use other means of warfare in an assymetrical war doesnt make the regular state's army any better. isreali army kills civilians as "collateral damage", israeli deny palestinian civilians acces to medication (or hospitals if on the wrong side of a checkpoint), power, food. they are no saints either.

Its up to the pallies to stop being terrorists they can only blame them selfs.

i could as well say isreal could end this conflict by just accepting a palestinian state within reasonable borders. but that would only be half of the truth....

I'm still waiting to see some from the Israelis...........

yeah, so thats one point the palestinians are more dishonest, thus evil, than isreal.
thats one to nil, GO ISRAEL!!!

 

[Fëanor]

Yeah its the jew run media.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that they run the media, but like anyone with power and interest in doing so, Israel too influences the media.

 

[skadistic]

just because they use other means of warfare in an assymetrical war doesnt make the regular state's army any better. isreali army kills civilians as "collateral damage", israeli deny palestinian civilians acces to medication (or hospitals if on the wrong side of a checkpoint), power, food. they are no saints either.Power so they can't run milling machines to build bombs. Maybe if the pallies built hospitals instead of rockets and didn't use ambulances to smuggle bombs they wouldn't have those problems. Food? Can't they grow their own? NO. Thats right they destroyed all the green houses. But thats Israels fault.....



i could as well say isreal could end this conflict by just accepting a palestinian state within reasonable borders. but that would only be half of the truth....They tried that and Arafat agreed to it but then got home and ordered the 2nd intafada instead. But that Israels fault



yeah, so thats one point the palestinians are more dishonest, thus evil, than isreal.
thats one to nil, GO ISRAEL!!!

Yeah I bet its Israels fault they are dishonest.

 

[skadistic]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that they run the media, but like anyone with power and interest in doing so, Israel too influences the media.

Oh sure. The evil jews have all the power. They control the US Congress too don't they? You'd think with all that money and power they could buy off the UN too........

 

[holy king]

cant you accept that noone is "right" in this mess thats been going on for decades now?
violence is counterd by violence is countered by violence is...

 

[Fëanor]

Yeah, talk about stereotypes.

---

I'm glad I'm not Jewish at times. I don't think I can deal with the prejudice and the stereotypes. 2000 years of persecution isn't enough.

I'm thankful everyday that I'm not prejudiced.

Exactly how is saying that Israel (with its 170.3 Billions economy and tens of billions more in aid) is able to afford to bankroll institutions for their propaganda a Prejudice or Stereotype?

It never seems to stop being funny to see how people resort to mudslinging when they lose arguments

by the way, the persecution of Jews dates back more to around 4000 thousand years ago than 2000 years, lets not play at historical revisionism shall we.

 

[holy king]

Exactly how is saying that Israel (with its 170.3 Billions economy and tens of billions more in aid) is able to afford to bankroll institutions for their propaganda a Prejudice or Stereotype?

its always the same...
you say there IS a strong israel lobby in the usa and someone HAS to use the word antisemitism...
i'm still waiting for someone accusing me of "antipetroleumism" if is say there is an oil lobby...

edit: and i do understand that this isnt particularly a great comparison, but thats because you cant really compare antisemitism and its disastrous effects to anything, i'm just trying to make a point...

They tried that and Arafat agreed to it but then got home and ordered the 2nd intafada instead. But that Israels fault

thats exactly why its only half of the truth...
on the other hand: if hamas layed down their weapons, what guarantee do they have that israel will grant them a palestinian state?

Yeah I bet its Israels fault they are dishonest.

to the extent that they drove the palestinians into a corner, where they have to use such methods: yes. but of course there was a reason for isreal to drive them into this corner, and... well, i hope you got the idea by now...

 

[Bast]

Exactly how is saying that Israel (with its 170.3 Billions economy and tens of billions more in aid) is able to afford to bankroll institutions for their propaganda a Prejudice or Stereotype?

Aid goes back into US to military contractors. Maybe you should do some reading.

 

[Bast]

It never seems to stop being funny to see how people resort to mudslinging when they lose arguments

You resort to the age-old stereotype that Jews somehow control the media. I called you out on it. Don't be surprised.

 

[Che Guava]

Oh sure. The evil jews have all the power. They control the US Congress too don't they? You'd think with all that money and power they could buy off the UN too........

Saw this this morning...thought it might be relevant..

Spoiler :

US storm over book on Israel lobby

The Bush administration - like its predecessors - has stood by Israel
The power of America's "Jewish lobby" is said to be legendary.

Commentators the world over refer to it, as though it were a well-established fact that US Jews wield far more influence than their numbers (2% of the population) would suggest.

But this presumed influence is also a delicate issue in the US, and is rarely analysed.

How does the lobby work? Is its power truly legendary, or just a legend?

Two US academics, John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard, have set out to answer those questions, and triggered a firestorm of controversy as a result.

Their book The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, which builds on a 2006 article in the London Review of Books, says the reasons for US support for Israel need to be explained.

Mearsheimer/Walt interview

America spends $3bn a year in largely military assistance - one-sixth of its direct aid budget - to help a prosperous, nuclear-armed country, and strongly backs Israel in negotiations on Middle East peace.

But according to Mearsheimer and Walt, the US gets remarkably little in return.

They reject the argument that Israel is a key ally in America's "war on terror".

On the contrary, they contend, US patronage of Israel fuels militant anger - as well as fostering resentment in Arab countries that control vital oil supplies.

One-sided

The authors also reject the common view of Israel as a democratic outpost that needs protection from deadly enemies.

It is indeed a vibrant democracy, they say, but also a regional giant ready to use its considerable firepower against civilians.


If both these arguments are weak, they say, the real reason behind US support for Israel is domestic - the activities of the American Israel Political Action Committee (Aipac), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and like-minded groups and think tanks.

Mearsheimer and Walt do not talk of a "Jewish lobby", as these groups do not speak for all US Jews and include many non-Jews, but of an "Israel lobby", whose main aim, they say, is to convince America that its interests are aligned with those of the Israeli state.

The book analyses the lobby's sources of influence - notably its financial muscle and the reluctance of critics to speak out.

Pro-Israeli contributions to US campaigns dwarf those of Arab-Americans or Muslim groups.

Like other interest groups, the Israel lobby also influences debate by rounding on politicians and commentators who take positions it does not like - but it does it particularly effectively, according to Mearsheimer and Walt.

Those who might think of questioning US support for Israel know they are in for a fight, making it more trouble than it is worth.

The resulting lack of discussion, the book says, has skewed US policies across the Middle East.

Most controversially, it argues that the lobby played an important role in the Iraq war.

No conspiracy

Perhaps not surprisingly, Mearsheimer and Walt have unleashed a torrent of criticism - though not from Aipac, which has made no comment.

"Their conclusions are classic anti-Semitic canards - such as control of foreign policy against the interest of the US, the Jews controlling the media and getting America into war," ADL director Abraham Foxman told the BBC News website.

After reading the original article, Mr Foxman wrote a book-length rebuttal entitled The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.

Many attacks have been highly personal.

In a fierce critique of their scholarship, Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote in the New Republic of the original article: "Were 'The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy' an actual person, I would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body."

Virtually all reviews of the book in the mainstream US press have been negative.

"They have often misrepresented our arguments badly or tried to smear us by either saying or hinting that we are anti-Semitic," Mr Walt told the BBC News website.

He and Mr Mearsheimer deny recycling old fantasies of Jewish conspiracies their book repeatedly states that pro-Israeli lobbying is not secretive, but conforms to the open rules of America's democratic system.
The authors regard their excoriation in the US press as a sign of the lobby's effectiveness, and point out that reviews abroad have been much more favourable.

"This in some way confirms our basic argument that it's much easier to talk about this subject outside the United States than we do inside the US," he says.

Cause and effect

However some of Mearsheimer and Walt's US critics have been less vitriolic and harder to dismiss as angry polemic."

Robert Lieberman, a Columbia University political scientist, argues that they overstate the lobby's financial power.

Mearsheimer and Walt cite cases of members of Congress losing their seats after running afoul of pro-Israeli groups which then bankrolled their opponents.

But Mr Lieberman says the contributions involved are unlikely to make a difference and the book fails to establish a clear link between lobby money and victory.

Senate Minority leader Tom Daschle lost his seat in 2004 despite the fact that he got more pro-Israel funding than any candidate that year.

"For any anecdote they come up with, you can come up with an anecdote that demonstrates the opposite," Mr Lieberman says.

Perhaps the most contentious argument in the book is the direct causal link it tries to establish between lobby activity and US Middle East policies.

But political preferences can be influenced by any number of factors, such as popular pressure, party politics or heartfelt conviction.

Although Mearsheimer and Walt do their best to discard those alternative explanations for the US pro-Israeli stance, many are unconvinced.

"Is this the manipulation of a tiny group, or is this politicians not wanting to take a stand that is unpopular with the broader public?" Walter Russell Mead, of the Council on Foreign Relations, told the BBC News website.

Mr Mead - who wrote a lengthy critique of the book in the journal Foreign Affairs - also says Mearsheimer and Walt give too vague a definition of the lobby to make any credible conclusion about its impact.

Opening up

The fact that the book invites criticism, however, is also a strength. Its scholarly, dispassionate tone is meant to encourage a debate.

"Reasonable people can disagree and one of the reasons we want to have a discussion is to get issues out in the open so people can talk about them," Mr Walt says.

Tony Judt - a prominent historian and critic of Israel - does not accept every point made by Mearsheimer and Walt, but he credits them with lifting a taboo.

The main effect of the lobby, he says, has been self-censorship. "There are people out there who are anti-Semitic obviously, and you don't want to find yourself in their company, so you end up saying nothing," he says.

Mr Judt himself is not afraid to speak out, but he has to tread more carefully when he criticises Israeli policies in the US than he does in Israel itself.

"I have written articles in Haaretz that no American newspapers would touch," he says.

In this context, he adds, Mearsheimer and Walt's book is an "enormous act of intellectual courage".

"They gained nothing from it, but the community has really gained something because with each little step like that, the conversation opens up a bit more."
link

Not saying i agree completely, but an interesting new look at the 'Israel Lobby'

 

[Fëanor]

Aid goes back into US to military contractors.

Yes, most of the Military aid does, however the Economic "development" aid does not.

Maybe you should do some reading.

a strange thing to say by someone that thinks that the persecutions of Jews started in 7 C.E.

 

[skadistic]

cant you accept that noone is "right" in this mess thats been going on for decades now?
violence is counterd by violence is countered by violence is...

Ummm no. Because one side is right. Its the side that doesn't launch rockets every day in hope of killing civilians. Its the side that doesn't brainwash its children with Jihad Micky. Its the side that doesn't stage it to look like the Israelis are killing indiscriminately. Its the side that doesn't spend its money on bombs instead infrastructure. Its the side that doesn't send it young men and woman out with bomb laden vests to kill babies on buses.

 

[holy king]

Ummm no. Because one side is right. Its the side that doesn't launch rockets every day in hope of killing civilians. Its the side that doesn't brainwash its children with Jihad Micky. Its the side that doesn't stage it to look like the Israelis are killing indiscriminately. Its the side that doesn't spend its money on bombs instead infrastructure. Its the side that doesn't send it young men and woman out with bomb laden vests to kill babies on buses.

sigh... i could now do the same list for the other side, starting with the jenin massacre, but i think its hopeless...
israel: good, palestinians: bad, you got it, buddy
i hereby give up the discussion with you...

 

[Bast]

a strange thing to say by someone that thinks that the persecutions of Jews started in 7 C.E.

I know English is not your first language but "2000 years ago" is not a literal expression. And if you understood the context of the persecution I was talking about you wouldn't have nitpicked.

But alas I know English isn't your first language. Rather than arguing here, I'd suggest you spend some time here: http://www.rong-chang.com/

 

[Fëanor]

You resort to the age-old stereotype that Jews somehow control the media. I called you out on it. Don't be surprised.

I never said that "Jews" controls the media.

Here let me quote what i said, try reading it slowly and perhaps using a vocabulary to help you with any "Hard" words.

Like anyone with power and interest in doing so, Israel too influences the media.

 

[Bast]

I never said that "Jews" controls the media.

Here let me quote what i said, try reading it slowly and perhaps using a vocabulary to help you with any "Hard" words.

You don't need to say it. That's what you implied. Do you know what that means?

 

[skadistic]

sigh... i could now do the same list for the other side, starting with the jenin massacre, but i think its hopeless...
israel: good, palestinians: bad, you got it, buddy
i hereby give up the discussion with you...

So do the same. Show me where Israelis blow up pally babies on buses with bomb laden young men. You can't. Show me daily Israeli rocket attacks. You can't. Show me the Israeli school books that teach hate. Show me the staged Israeli video. Show me the Israeli boy stopped at a check point ( those oppressive check points) carrying a book bag filled with explosive.