Pantheon Adjustment Brainstorm

[CrazyG]

This has already been done, except it's 2 to lodges, not 1 to lodges.

Thanks, the wiki isn't updated.

Do you think the version without faith would be better? I'm targeting the strength of God of the Sea, and I'm unsure which to do. This pantheon isn't that high in faith because you have to spend many turns improving the camps.

 

[Stalker0]

Thanks, the wiki isn't updated.

Do you think the version without faith would be better? I'm targeting the strength of God of the Sea, and I'm unsure which to do. This pantheon isn't that high in faith because you have to spend many turns improving the camps.

I find the current hunt just fine on those beautiful klondikes I've mentioned before. Sometimes you just get seas of deer, and even with the delayed faith generation I find camps build quickly enough and it scales well enough that I found with it pretty easily. If we are truly targetting the most problematic pantheons, hunt does not make my list.

 

[Stalker0]

I'll put my comments inline

Here is a rough draft of what could be pantheon changes. The general logic is the pantheon should help address weaknesses (like giving food to a low food start) while making sure the gameplan makes sense.

Earth Mother:
21 to monuments, 1 to mines on improved resources.
Logic: Most mines don't give food, which makes working several in a city really difficult. This is good in a capital with 3 mines, but its awkward when after a settler is built you need to work food tiles instead of those mines. Food everywhere helps.

--Seems reasonable, I would give this a go.


Ancestor Worship:
12 to councils. 1 per 4 in a city.
Logic: Less culture but slightly more faith. This is high faith and really easy to use, it's a good backup option.

--I think its easy to underestimate how much of a nerf this is, but its probably warranted. Like you said, it becomes the ultimate "plan B", I never want this as my main, but if my terrain just doesn't fit with other pantheons its always an option.

Sun God:
12 to wheat, rice, and corn. 2 to granaries.
Logic: The only version of this was bad. It gave food to land that already had really high food.
Here, it gives what those cities often lack, hammers and gold. The bonus is applied to resources themselves, not a farm, because workers need to be improving luxuries at this stage. The yields are high because there is no farm luxury, so you usually get fewer of these than you do camps/whatever.
This is very high faith which means it could be worth considering even with no culture.

--I think the instant yields are what sells this. Its total bonuses still aren't all that amazing, but combined with the fact they come online immediately if you get that nice 2-3 wheat city is a big deal, and I agree it should be faith heavy on terrain that I would consider sun god on. I'm game.


Ok so the other one on the block was Commerce. Lets dig into some ideas:

Commerce V1 (more heavily focused on the trade aspect)
Trade Units build 50% faster (this is a big deal in the early game, TRs are quite pricey)
4 for every TR
+3 Great Merchant GPP in capital

Commerce V2 (WLTKD are another common aspect of merchant play, so a focus on that).
+5% growth during WLTKD
2 for every TR, in the capital, and in each connected city (aka this kicks in before the 2nd city is made).
+3 Great Merchant GPP in capital

Commerce V3 (Markets are the definitive building for early commerce. While it does exist on renewal, its a niche enough building that there is no reason you can't have 2 pantheons that give it a boost).
+1 culture, faith, and science on Market
2 for every TR
+2 Great Merchant GPP in capital

 

[pineappledan]

Commerce V1 (more heavily focused on the trade aspect)
Trade Units build 50% faster (this is a big deal in the early game, TRs are quite pricey)
4 for every TR
+3 Great Merchant GPP in capital

Commerce V2 (WLTKD are another common aspect of merchant play, so a focus on that).
+5% growth during WLTKD
2 for every TR, in the capital, and in each connected city (aka this kicks in before the 2nd city is made).
+3 Great Merchant GPP in capital

Commerce V3 (Markets are the definitive building for early commerce. While it does exist on renewal, its a niche enough building that there is no reason you can't have 2 pantheons that give it a boost).
+1 culture, faith, and science on Market
2 for every TR
+2 Great Merchant GPP in capital

To be clear, you are aware that the boost isn’t per active TR, but for each TR to and from the city, right? Foreign TRs targeting your city count, and ITRs from 1 city and to another city with this pantheon count double.

From the language you use, it seems like you’re trying to rebalance this because you don’t know how it works

 

[CrazyG]

Commerce V2 (WLTKD are another common aspect of merchant play, so a focus on that).
+5% growth during WLTKD
2 for every TR, in the capital, and in each connected city (aka this kicks in before the 2nd city is made).
+3 Great Merchant GPP in capital

Commerce V3 (Markets are the definitive building for early commerce. While it does exist on renewal, its a niche enough building that there is no reason you can't have 2 pantheons that give it a boost).
+1 culture, faith, and science on Market
2 for every TR
+2 Great Merchant GPP in capital

I think the best way to help God of Commerce is to nerf the culture pantheons. You are emphasizing how much -1 culture to ancestor worship hurts it, and I agree, I actually think that alone is might be enough of a buff for God of Commerce.

I'm not picking 2 gold per city over 2 culture per city, even if the gold route has a more faith. However, I will consider 2 gold over 1 culture per city, especially if there's such strong faith on the other end (I admit I didn't realize that internal routes count twice, I knew the foreign routes counting, but you can't really control that).

For V2:
No need for WLTKD stuff IMO. If we are to ask anything of DLL modders, I'd like the yields in the capital to start immediately, rather than after the second city. I also think 2 Great Merchant is plenty and we don't need to break symmetry.

For V3:
I think it should buff trade routes or markets, with both it becomes pretty complex for a pantheon. If a building is to appear twice, I think it should be the herbalist, Renewal is a bizzarely designed pantheon (even if it isn't OP on map scripts you play, perhaps we can agree that its weird?). It sort of makes sense on exactly Sugar Jungle (because markets buff Sugar) but otherwise the market thing bonus is really out of place IMO.

 

[Stalker0]

Renewal is a bizzarely designed pantheon (even if it isn't OP on map scripts you play, perhaps we can agree that its weird?). It sort of makes sense on exactly Sugar Jungle (because markets buff Sugar) but otherwise the market thing bonus is really out of place IMO.

The reason I don't think renewal is OP is that working standard forest/jungle tiles is very weak for a long time. I think it is rock solid, absolutely, but I do think there is a cost of doing business.

That said, I absolutely agree the market is very weird here, and herbalist makes far more sense.

funny enough I consider market the building of God of Wisdom of all things. I find its much easier to get the market going to work a specialist than having to wait for council/library, so I tend to build a lot of markets when I go wisdom.

 

[pineappledan]

Renewal used to have herbalist and springtime used to have market, but the two were swapped because springtime was too slow. Plantations are slow to improve (700 build time), often require chopping, which might mean a detour to mining, and so to have the building bonus on a 2nd, different T2 tech made springtime by far the slowest pantheon to set up. Slower than protection by a good margin.

You might not like it, but there is a reason for it. Maybe renewal could get something so it can just drop a building bonus entirely and market can go to festivals, if the flavour is that important. But that’s at least an explanation for how we got here

 

[Stalker0]

Renewal used to have herbalist and springtime used to have market, but the two were swapped because springtime was too slow. Plantations are slow to improve (700 build time), often require chopping, which might mean a detour to mining, and so to have the building bonus on a 2nd, different T2 tech made springtime by far the slowest pantheon to set up. Slower than protection by a good margin.

You might not like it, but there is a reason for it. Maybe renewal could get something so it can just drop a building bonus entirely and market can go to festivals, if the flavour is that important. But that’s at least an explanation for how we got here

I think CrazyG was suggesting to use the herbalist for both.

 

[pineappledan]

Ew. 1 building to 1 pantheon. I reject any proposal that would make it otherwise.

 

[CrazyG]

I think CrazyG was suggesting to use the herbalist for both.

My view was if a building is used twice (which you suggested), herbalist > markets.

Renewal used to have herbalist and springtime used to have market, but the two were swapped because springtime was too slow. Plantations are slow to improve (700 build time), often require chopping, which might mean a detour to mining, and so to have the building bonus on a 2nd, different T2 tech made springtime by far the slowest pantheon to set up. Slower than protection by a good margin.

Springtime is effectively for non-chopping plantations in my opinion. I strongly agree that markets don't belong with any improvement pantheon.

 

[azum4roll]

I think the best way to help God of Commerce is to nerf the culture pantheons. You are emphasizing how much -1 culture to ancestor worship hurts it, and I agree, I actually think that alone is might be enough of a buff for God of Commerce.

I'm not picking 2 gold per city over 2 culture per city, even if the gold route has a more faith. However, I will consider 2 gold over 1 culture per city, especially if there's such strong faith on the other end (I admit I didn't realize that internal routes count twice, I knew the foreign routes counting, but you can't really control that).

For V2:
No need for WLTKD stuff IMO. If we are to ask anything of DLL modders, I'd like the yields in the capital to start immediately, rather than after the second city. I also think 2 Great Merchant is plenty and we don't need to break symmetry.

For V3:
I think it should buff trade routes or markets, with both it becomes pretty complex for a pantheon. If a building is to appear twice, I think it should be the herbalist, Renewal is a bizzarely designed pantheon (even if it isn't OP on map scripts you play, perhaps we can agree that its weird?). It sort of makes sense on exactly Sugar Jungle (because markets buff Sugar) but otherwise the market thing bonus is really out of place IMO.

Sugar doesn't even exist in Jungle anymore. It makes sense on Cinnamon.

 

[pineappledan]

Just want to point out that Belief_ResourceYieldChanges is a table that already exists and isn't used by anything.

So the idea that God of the Sun could boost wheat/rice/maize directly is something that is possible with minimal extra work and isn't something that is done by any other ability in the game.