PAX-E VideoInterview with Dennis Shirk

I'd also be surprised if interdiction fire could destroy even civilian units outright.
I'd sure hope not; accidentally move my transport one tile too far forward (because I move it first by accident) and it gets entirely destroyed, even without engaging in combat at all? That doesn't sound fun.

Accidentally moving your transports first (and getting bombarded by warships) isn't much different than accidentally moving your Settler/Worker two tiles and walking next to a barbarian, as you can in any other Civ. Clerical errors in military situations are always fatal, be it Civ, Panzer General, or real war. ;)

Stile said:
So what happens if a unit embarks in an inland sea in enemy territory to avoid destruction. They could perhaps even heal, then pop up ready to fight. If there's no city on the lake then no navy will threaten it. This would lead one to believe that ranged land units would be able to attack it.

I don't see any tactical advantage gained by this. If it's a one-on-one fight, and you hide on a lake to heal, your opponent is also healing; you'll both be fresh when you come off the water again. If you're outnumbered and hiding out on a lake, you'll still be outnumbered when you make landfall, so you're still in a bad spot. It's not like you can stack a giant army on one lake* thanks to 1UpH, so at absolute most you'll get one refreshed unit out of it (which your opponent also gets!).

*Which makes for an absolutely hilarious mental image.
 
I think it's highly unlikely land units will be able to heal by turning into transports if it's a way of avoiding being attacked. Really, you need to give the designers/developers more credit than that! :lol: If you can think of absurd yet simple consequences of a postulated game mechanic, chances are that's not how that mechanic will work, ok? ;)

That said, I'm not intending to take a shot at anyone... I just think we should wait for a bit more info before we worry too much about this mechanic.
 
I don't see any tactical advantage gained by this. If it's a one-on-one fight, and you hide on a lake to heal, your opponent is also healing; you'll both be fresh when you come off the water again. If you're outnumbered and hiding out on a lake, you'll still be outnumbered when you make landfall, so you're still in a bad spot. It's not like you can stack a giant army on one lake* thanks to 1UpH, so at absolute most you'll get one refreshed unit out of it (which your opponent also gets!).

*Which makes for an absolutely hilarious mental image.

Point taken. I can imagine scenarios where you wait for a peace treaty to avoid losing a unit or until reinforcements arrive, but it may be of marginal value. I thought the 1 uph didn't apply to transports else how would transports be escorted by a battleship. I hope that doesn't take the hilarity out of your mental image.

Edit: Nevermind. I think it's 1 per type of unit.
 
I think it's highly unlikely land units will be able to heal by turning into transports if it's a way of avoiding being attacked. Really, you need to give the designers/developers more credit than that! :lol: If you can think of absurd yet simple consequences of a postulated game mechanic, chances are that's not how that mechanic will work, ok? ;)

That said, I'm not intending to take a shot at anyone... I just think we should wait for a bit more info before we worry too much about this mechanic.

No offense taken. While we're waiting I enjoy thinking about the info we know so far and imagining how it works. Thinking up an absurd consequence of a postulated mechanic is my method of determining how something is implemented. If that's not how it will work, then we can rule something out. That said, if wouldn't be the first time an absurd consequence entered into a game even Civ, think ICS for starters. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis actively monitors these boards for ideas and such (a possible exploit being a such).
 
No offense taken. While we're waiting I enjoy thinking about the info we know so far and imagining how it works. Thinking up an absurd consequence of a postulated mechanic is my method of determining how something is implemented. If that's not how it will work, then we can rule something out. That said, if wouldn't be the first time an absurd consequence entered into a game even Civ, think ICS for starters. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis actively monitors these boards for ideas and such (a possible exploit being a such).

True. I should add it wasn't til after I posted I read your post more carefully to see you'd used an absurd result to rule out or rule in something else that would prevent that absurdity, which is a pretty solid line of reasoning IMO.

It's just odd (or should I say painful?) to see so many assumptions go into such discussions. Usually the assumptions are based on a kind of civ4normativity, which I define to be the view that for each game feature, in the absence of any data to the contrary the game will function in the same way as civ4. :)

For example, much of the initial "rage" over the 1UPT was due to civ4normative assumptions made about civ5. Once people discovered there will be stricter limits on overall unit numbers and greater tactical depth (among other things perhaps), the tone changed and there was calm again.
 
Why can't a Trireme be outfitted with a small siege weapon (like a ballista or catapult) or even have a troops of archers to do very short-range interdiction? Even if not historically accurate

Actually they did do this in previous millennia.

I have no idea if Civ will include it, however.


It's just odd (or should I say painful?) to see so many assumptions go into such discussions. Usually the assumptions are based on a kind of civ4normativity, which I define to be the view that for each game feature, in the absence of any data to the contrary the game will function in the same way as civ4.

Even worse, a lot of posters are assuming that the civ devs are morons, unable to foresee the most obvious ramifications of any changes. Both of these assumptions are leading to a lot of unnecessary drama and fear.
 
Accidentally moving your transports first (and getting bombarded by warships) isn't much different than accidentally moving your Settler/Worker two tiles and walking next to a barbarian, as you can in any other Civ.
Its a bit different, because in no other civ could you lose a unit during your own turn without attacking anything.

If you moved the settler forward next to a barbarian, you could then bring up another unit to cover it.
You can't do that with interdiction; the interdiction shot happens immediately.

So what happens if a unit embarks in an inland sea in enemy territory to avoid destruction. They could perhaps even heal, then pop up ready to fight.
Its an interesting hypothetical, but you probably heal very fast in enemy territory, and they can still probably bombard you from shore, and if not a very big sea you can't hide many units there.
Its also easy enough to prevent transports from being used on lakes (which is not the same as landlocked inland seas)

Actually they did do this in previous millennia.

Yesh, but they weren't particularly effective as a combat weapon. Boarding actions still comprised the vast majority of galley warfare. We should be trying to replicate this.
 
My previous posts in this thread were attacked quite a lot. My posting time is limited, so I don't have the time to respond to each attack directly, but I did wonder why no-one actually bothered to respond to the main statement in my post. My main statement was that the new embarkation rules might allow civilizations to cross bodies of water without any previous planning or any previous hammer investment. With this statement, I wasn't being all-negative or assuming that the designers were morons. I was just describing a fairly logical result of the embarkation rule. Of course there might be additional rules that make planning fairly necessary. I even mentioned a possible one directly following this statement: a shipping pool which must be constructed before you can transform units into ships. This idea is similar to the transport ships used for colonists in Orion II if anyone remembers that game.

I wouldn't like it if bodies of water could be crossed without previous planning because that would remove one layer of planning and would make water a less significant barrier to movement. The main attraction of civ to me is strategy, tactics and planning, so it would be a negative point for civ5. While it could be compensated by other positives, it would still remain a negative.

By the way, I do like a lot of other stuff which I read about the military aspects of civilization V (more tactical battles due to 1UPT + ranged attack + terrain which can't be crossed, hexes, higher movement per turn, interdiction, less roads). But I like to take a more balanced approach to a new game and not assume that everything will be perfect. I can't say that this was ever true in any previous game which I played, although the civ games were all great in their own way.

PieceofMind: I also immediately thought that the embarkation rule was motivated in large part by the AI problems with amphibious transportation and I agree that it's a good idea to help the AI this way.
 
My previous posts in this thread were attacked quite a lot. My posting time is limited, so I don't have the time to respond to each attack directly, but I did wonder why no-one actually bothered to respond to the main statement in my post. My main statement was that the new embarkation rules might allow civilizations to cross bodies of water without any previous planning or any previous hammer investment. With this statement, I wasn't being all-negative or assuming that the designers were morons. I was just describing a fairly logical result of the embarkation rule. Of course there might be additional rules that make planning fairly necessary. I even mentioned a possible one directly following this statement: a shipping pool which must be constructed before you can transform units into ships. This idea is similar to the transport ships used for colonists in Orion II if anyone remembers that game.

I wouldn't like it if bodies of water could be crossed without previous planning because that would remove one layer of planning and would make water a less significant barrier to movement. The main attraction of civ to me is strategy, tactics and planning, so it would be a negative point for civ5. While it could be compensated by other positives, it would still remain a negative.

By the way, I do like a lot of other stuff which I read about the military aspects of civilization V (more tactical battles due to 1UPT + ranged attack + terrain which can't be crossed, hexes, higher movement per turn, interdiction, less roads). But I like to take a more balanced approach to a new game and not assume that everything will be perfect. I can't say that this was ever true in any previous game which I played, although the civ games were all great in their own way.

PieceofMind: I also immediately thought that the embarkation rule was motivated in large part by the AI problems with amphibious transportation and I agree that it's a good idea to help the AI this way.

Allow me to speculate...

From the available screenshots, it's looking like there will again be at least two different levels of water depth which to me suggests that early in the tech tree, once sailing and embarkation become possible, it will only be possible to navigate coastal tiles by water. This might allow land units to get around a peak or something but I don't think it will so much allow them to cross "bodies of water" unless those bodies of water are coastal and just separating something like an island.

We already have at least one screenshot where supposedly we see an archer firing over a lake. This suggests the scale they're striving for is such that a single tile or two of water should not be viewed as a massive body of water larger than maybe a few tens of kilometres. I view this as being like movement between islands which even primitive tribal groups achieved without much resource investment.

Crossing larger bodies of water (beyond just coast tile) I would assume would take a later tech (like Astronomy in Civ4). After this point, it might indeed be possible to move massive armies across larger bodies of water with little to no planning or investment before hand and I'd imagine this is where your concerns will be mainly directed, Roland. However, one as to ask what advantages there are to up and moving a massive army across water? For starters, I think it's safe to assume that any unit once it enters the water and becomes a (civilian?) transport will be very vulnerable to attack so if you're planning a naval invasion it will take an investment in military naval units before that becomes feasible. I'm assuming the devs have the nous to have AIs build up at least some naval military units if they have any significant part of their empire on the coast and guard their important assets with nearby ships.

In my view, investment in the tech tree and sufficient naval protection for any water-body-crossing journey will be the two main investments required for these things. I don't see a big problem with the removal of the requirement to build specialised unit transports. It can be relegated to another layer of abstraction just as units moving over railroads and roads don't have wheels. However I appreciate that in reality building a transport ship is not on the same scale as building a wheeled cart. For this reason I think there will be some momentary penalty for embarkation actions. For example, maybe units will suffer a landing penalty on the turn they disembark. This will make amphibious invasions risky if you don't have convincing numbers, just as it has always been.

Overall, I think it may be true the designers are doing away with the idea of bodies of waters being "barriers" as you describe them. Instead they are becoming more like just a different type of terrain. This should have the advantage of making the naval game more interesting IMO.

And the more I think about it, if you want to bring realism into it, I don't see how it can be argued that travelling along coast has classically been a bigger barrier than say, travelling across harsh deserts or rugged mountain ranges.
 
Interdiction (land based, if not naval) has been confirmed for the game, Ahriman, so like it or not we're going to have to start *thinking* about where we move our units both before & after our turns are finished-especially if they're completely defenseless. I'd be very surprised if they leave out an ability to link the movement of a naval transport & a military naval unit on top of it-to prevent the problem you mention. To me it is really no different to the example with the worker or settler. If you send them out, undefended, then you've no one to blame but yourself if they get killed-whether that it done via a direct attack or via interdiction. I'm with PieceofMind when I say its deeply disturbing how some people hear *assume* that the developers are total morons incapable of thinking out-& thus counteracting-the exploits that this system might create. Even if *they* somehow miss it, it will almost certainly be put through extensive beta testing, where these exploits can be discovered & *removed*!

Aussie.
 
From the available screenshots, it's looking like there will again be at least two different levels of water depth which to me suggests that early in the tech tree, once sailing and embarkation become possible, it will only be possible to navigate coastal tiles by water.

This is a good point. 1Upt + early land units only able to enter Coast (not Ocean) tiles will mean that there are the equivalent of massive choke points restricting how many land units you can get across a given strait, at least until ocean-going travel has been achieved.

And coastal travel, far from being barriers, have historically been just the opposite; travelling by coast was much cheaper, faster and more effective than trying to march through mountains.

It leaves us with the interesting possibility that we might be using coastlines to transport ancient/medieval land units to get to the battlefield faster. It would be great if naval travel importance could finally be recognized.
 
Actually, PieceofMind, you're also right about the thing about traveling via the coast as opposed to traveling through a desert or hills. This is something that has long bothered me about the early part of Civ games. Historically, units were transported along the coast in order to avoid the delays caused by traveling through tough overland terrain. Yet in Civ it is as easy to move through a desert as it is through grassland-thus navies have never really been a factor in the game until the late middle ages. I'm hoping these changes do result in a greater naval game during the pre-Medieval era!

Aussie.
 
LOL. Sorry Ahriman, I should have read your post before I posted my previous comment. Well I do concur with you that it'd be nice to see more use of navies-for transport & war-at the start of the game, & it certainly sounds like this new rule will help. For what its worth, I sincerely hope that it can't be exploited, but I trust the designers to be able to make it *largely* exploit free (lets face facts, a dedicated Rules-Rapist will always find SOME way of exploiting a new rule, no matter how hard the designers try to allow for it ;))!

Aussie.
 
Coastal travel for units without any investment in shipping wouldn't be a problem to me at all. It has always been a lot easier and cheaper to transport bulk goods and people through coastal areas and along rivers than through land roads until railroads appeared. But I still dislike the notion of transporting large amounts of people (units) through the ocean without any previous hammer investment in such transporting abilities. It diminishes the oceans as a barrier and makes it too easy to pass those areas and it removes planning to cross that barrier. (And yes, it remains stupid to amphibiously invade an enemy who has a large military navy blocking passage while only using civilian transports, something which I never suggested.)

The game designers can very easily keep the need for previous planning and investment in civilian shipping while also keeping the embarkation mechanic. Just require us to build non-localized civilian shipping (a la Master of Orion 2) which can be used to transport units across the ocean anywhere. I sincerely hope that the designers chose this option so that investment in civilian shipping is still required to cross oceans.

Building these non-localized civilian shipping to transport units over the oceans would be similar and even more abstracted than building and maintaining workers to build roads and railroads. I also wouldn't like it when roads and railroads started appearing automatically between cities without any planning in constructing workers to do so.
 
Hearts of Iron also uses an invisible transport pool for shifting resources around.

I can see an invisible capacity limit as being feasible.

Presumably if you lose a unit while in transport form, you'd also lose some of your capacity.
 
Hearts of Iron also uses an invisible transport pool for shifting resources around.

I can see an invisible capacity limit as being feasible.

Presumably if you lose a unit while in transport form, you'd also lose some of your capacity.

Exactly.

And I think this still allows most of the advantages for the AI which mainly has trouble linking land units, transports and escort ships into an amphibious invasion in previous versions of civ.
 
I guess you're seeing it more clearly than me, Roland, but I'm not finding it too concerning at this point.

Something as simple as taking a turn to turn into a ship would be sufficient IMO to abstractly represent the effort required to build the ship.

Transports for actual vehicles, instead of people with weapons, is a different level I guess...

Perhaps these "civilian" transports will be for vehicle-less units. Dedicated transports will be necessary for things like tanks etc., maybe including mounted units.
 
Just to clarify to other readers (Roland knows what I meant); by "invisible" I mean "abstracted and not represented in the game map", it would obviously still have to be viewable by the player somewhere. I would imagine that your transport pool would be viewable on the Military advisor screen, and maybe mouseover on any transport unit "X out of Y transports still available".

And the Advisor could give "build more transports" as part of its advice.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the size of your actual merchant fleet should still matter; this is true throughout history, very few powers actually had the capacity to move large armies around.

Hence Venice and the fourth crusade (my favorite piece of history of all time).

And I like the idea of killing enemy transports retarding their ability to send more land units at you across the ocean.
 
I guess you're seeing it more clearly than me, Roland, but I'm not finding it too concerning at this point.

Something as simple as taking a turn to turn into a ship would be sufficient IMO to abstractly represent the effort required to build the ship.

Transports for actual vehicles, instead of people with weapons, is a different level I guess...

Perhaps these "civilian" transports will be for vehicle-less units. Dedicated transports will be necessary for things like tanks etc., maybe including mounted units.

It of course has nothing to do with seeing things more clearly :p. It's just a matter of preference. I just prefer to see the ocean represented as the barrier it is. Otherwise, it's just blue land tiles which slow movement once you enter them. And that mechanic of slowing movement upon embarkation (which comes from this discussion, not from an article) wouldn't even work well for coastal transportation as that was historically a fast and efficient way of transport.

The first ocean faring exploration missions were great undertakings. Later even the greatest naval power of its time (England) had trouble reinforcing its armies on distant shores eventually releasing for instance the US as free nation even while it had total naval supremacy and the strongest army. It was a bit harder than walking their redcoats over the ocean towards the barely protected US coastline. Nowadays the greatest naval power (US) still has to spent lots of money to just transport its armies to distant shores. There really was barely a threat of the Iraki navy. The ocean itself hampers movement and it costs lots of money and resources to cross it. If that isn't somehow represented in the game, then those blue tiles just don't feel like ocean to me. And thus it hurts my gameplay experience.

It's fairly easy to represent those cost by requiring nations to build an invisible naval shipping pool if they wish to use the embarkation mechanic. Each ship in the shipping pool would require some hammers to build and could be used as an embarkation vessel anywhere by any unit. If you'd want to be able to transport 10 units at once over the ocean, then you'd need to get 10 ships in your shipping pool. You'd need to invest those resources before you could cross the ocean.
 
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