Peaceful science victory in Modern - extremely boring?!

[Berrern]

I just completed my first peaceful science victory in Civ 7, and I must say it was really boring So I wanted to hear if others have the same experience!

I had an absolute blast in an epic Exploration age with the Incas, where due to my continent having a huge amount of mountains, my one goal was to build/conquer 3 settlements with 5 mountains each - to unlock Nepal with its Highland power stations for the next age.

I succeeded, and started the Modern era with Nepal. I was playing with Himiko, and had been leading the path for science in both ages, so figured I'd go for a Science victory for once: Complete the Launch Satellite project. And for once I'd avoid declaring war on anyone, and try to get through a peaceful age.

In the beginning of the age, I was slightly behind most of the AI when it came to science yields:

I beelined the Nepal civic mastery that lets you build Highland Power Stations, and then had fun for a few turns, pumping out sherpas and watching those mountains become immense powerhouses!
Meanwhile I researched Academics and then Electricity, and started building Schoolhouses and Laboratories.

By turn 25, I had twice the science yield of the best AI.

At this stage, I had reorganised all my troops following the age transition scramble, no AI had declared war on me, there were no more science buildings to research or build, and the only main objective was to research Flight - so obviously I beelined that.
Every turn was essentially just Grow city / Town, set city build orders to Research Initiative, and end turn. Over and over. This quickly got pointless, so I started to just "force end" every turn (Shift+Enter) until I got Flight.

I then spent 1 turn moving some of my Commanders to protect my best production-yielding city, and started the Trans-atlantic flight there. And beelined Aerodynamics. Again, force end turns until I got there. Started building the Sound Barrier project while researching rocketry, force end turn after turn. I finally build the Launch Pad, then choose "Crewed space flight" and force end turns until it launches and I get the victory on Turn 81.

Needless to say, this was very boring after turn 25 or so. If an AI had declared war on me, there would've been some excitement, but nobody did. Perhaps because I had the Gate of all nations + the Westfalen legacy bonus from Exploration + the extra war support from the military attribute tree (which combined gives +6 war support). It surely wasn't because my military was overwhelming, as you can see in this screenshot from near the end:

Does anyone else have similar experiences with a peaceful science victory? Or did you manage to have fun doing it - if so, how?
Of course, I could've taken some time building a gold or culture building here or there, to boost those yields, but what was the point?

Is it simply too boring without any war activity?

TL;DR:
The first two techs you research (Academics -> Electricity) gets you the only two science buildings available in this age (Schoolhouse & Laboratory). Build those two in your settlements, and as long as the AI doesn't declare war on you, you can just force-end nearly every turn until you eventually research Flight -> Aerodynamics and finally Rocketry. And get your victory. I found this way too easy and boring...

 

[Krikkit1]

I think that is true of any victory.

If the AI isn’t contesting it, its pretty simple.

Culture victory requires some movement and is easier for the AI to compete. But Economic is just build and slot and wait.

If the AI isn’t getting close (so you’re forced to maximize) or tripping you up by espionage, it’s a bit of a problem.

Perhaps every project you complete could give a science boost to other civs who don’t have that project…so they get better at challenging you either militarily or in the space race itself.

 

[jaegermeister]

This never happened to me in ANY game that I played so far. I am playing on the difficulty level Sovereign and Immortal depending on my mood/civ/map. Every game I play is full of wars. I don't know why but I kinda get through war-peace-war cycle in every 10 turns. AI is too vicious in my games, always seeking to expand or pull out of some **** on me.

 

[UWHabs]

I'll usually at least fight a basic proxy war in the modern era. I haven't necessarily had too many peaceful games. Sometimes I've even had games where I get into enough skirmishes that I just pivot to a military win, since it's easier than going through the peace/war cycle constantly.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think this is part of the basic problem of the Modern Age/Legacy-Victory Paths.

Basically, neither the Science nor the Economic Paths have any real conflict between Civs in them, and given how bad the AI is at competing, the Cultural Path doesn't have much. That means without Wars, there isn't much of anything happening in the Age to stop you from achieving any of three Victory types. And given the direct relationship between Technology and Military Excellence, especially in the Modern Age, if you are ahead in Science, you have to really work hard not to be ahead militarily. When you are opposing Tier 1 units with Tier 3 in any Age, the results are pretty certain to match the song from the musical Pippin:

"We won't just have a Victory, We'll have a Massacre . . ."

Nor is this specific to the Modern Age. In general, there is not enough real Conflict involved in most of the Legacy Paths in any Age of the game.

Antiquity Economic is simply piling up Resources in your cities. Short of taking those cities away from you or being in constant wars that make Trade impossible, there's not much to stop the Resource Pile that the AI can (or will) do.

Antiquity Science - pile up Codexes, the receipt of which is based on getting Civics and Narrative events. Not even wars can stop them.

Exploration Economic - entirely map-dependent, altough a little less so since the last patch. Until the AI starts actually attacking Treasure Fleets, though, it's more You against the Map than You against the AI.

Exploration Cultural - pile up Relics, which you get from Missionary temporary conversions and Narrative events and/or Civics. Again, being at war makes conversion impossible, but being at war continuously is a Bad Thing in this game.

Exploration Science - build up Specialists in your Cities' tiles. Again, short of taking those cities away from you, there is nothing much anybody else in the game can do about it.

Note that the game is obviously Designed to avoid Conflict. Even conquering a city full of Codexes or Relics, you don't get any captured Codexes or Relics: apparently your plundering soldiers eat them all or trade them for a beer.

Apparently, what the game was designed for was Dullness. How they thought that removing inter-Civ conflict from most of the Legacy/Victory paths would make an interesting game rather boggles the mind . . .

 

[Krikkit1]

I think this is part of the basic problem of the Modern Age/Legacy-Victory Paths.

Basically, neither the Science nor the Economic Paths have any real conflict between Civs in them, and given how bad the AI is at competing, the Cultural Path doesn't have much. That means without Wars, there isn't much of anything happening in the Age to stop you from achieving any of three Victory types. And given the direct relationship between Technology and Military Excellence, especially in the Modern Age, if you are ahead in Science, you have to really work hard not to be ahead militarily. When you are opposing Tier 1 units with Tier 3 in any Age, the results are pretty certain to match the song from the musical Pippin:

"We won't just have a Victory, We'll have a Massacre . . ."

Nor is this specific to the Modern Age. In general, there is not enough real Conflict involved in most of the Legacy Paths in any Age of the game.

Antiquity Economic is simply piling up Resources in your cities. Short of taking those cities away from you or being in constant wars that make Trade impossible, there's not much to stop the Resource Pile that the AI can (or will) do.

Antiquity Science - pile up Codexes, the receipt of which is based on getting Civics and Narrative events. Not even wars can stop them.

Exploration Economic - entirely map-dependent, altough a little less so since the last patch. Until the AI starts actually attacking Treasure Fleets, though, it's more You against the Map than You against the AI.

Exploration Cultural - pile up Relics, which you get from Missionary temporary conversions and Narrative events and/or Civics. Again, being at war makes conversion impossible, but being at war continuously is a Bad Thing in this game.

Exploration Science - build up Specialists in your Cities' tiles. Again, short of taking those cities away from you, there is nothing much anybody else in the game can do about it.

Note that the game is obviously Designed to avoid Conflict. Even conquering a city full of Codexes or Relics, you don't get any captured Codexes or Relics: apparently your plundering soldiers eat them all or trade them for a beer.

Apparently, what the game was designed for was Dullness. How they thought that removing inter-Civ conflict from most of the Legacy/Victory paths would make an interesting game rather boggles the mind . . .

They did add some of it in through Espionage (a way to hamstring your science/economic Modern win)
I think they wanted not everything to be War (they don't what it to be Civ:"War what is is it good for? Everything")
That's why they have a separate Military Legacy

The problem is....
1. The AI doesn't threaten to win by getting itself ahead
2. The AI doesn't use those tools that it was given to hold you back
3. (and the AI is pretty bad at war)

Now if the Legacy paths required more diplomacy... say
Factory resources were rarer so you needed more trade routes to get them.
or
You needed special arrangements to research in someone's Universities/Museums
etc.
OR if
Pursuing a legacy path left you more vulnerable in other ways
Building a science project "leaks" some of your science.. so for every project you have, anyone that doesn't have that project gets a science bonus from you.

or the world itself provided more difficulty (you against the map like in Economic Exploration or your people)

That might help

But a lot of that goes to the AI actually using the tools provided to
1. gain on you in the race
and
2. trip you up

so improve the tools... ie sabotaging Space Race should be available in the Cultural tree (maybe Ideology)... and it should be cheaper
AND
make the AI use them

 

[MutilationWave]

As usual you guys have said most of what's to be said, I just wanted to add I've only done science victory once and I won't be doing it again unless it changes. Shift-enter, shift-enter, shift-enter. And not to cheat production either, it's just that boring.

I love war in this one but I just don't see the point if you're not going military victory to even pick an ideology. Even for military victory it's not necessary.

It all boils down to the fact that the AI is bad at playing the game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As usual you guys have said most of what's to be said, I just wanted to add I've only done science victory once and I won't be doing it again unless it changes. Shift-enter, shift-enter, shift-enter. And not to cheat production either, it's just that boring.

I love war in this one but I just don't see the point if you're not going military victory to even pick an ideology. Even for military victory it's not necessary.

It all boils down to the fact that the AI is bad at playing the game.

As far as I can tell, Ideology is only necessary if you really need the AI to hate your guts for some reason. It virtually guarantees bad relations with an AI that picks another Ideology from yours, and is not even necessary to win a military 'victory', so why bother?

I have never had a pressing need for any of the 'bonuses' associated with the Ideologies, and they are such completely ridiculous anti-historical fantasies I don't even want them in the game.

 

[Berrern]

It seems it all comes down to the AI not actually being good at playing the game. Which is a big shame, and it's incredible that after over 30 years, they still can't make a smart AI. I can recall the AI being better in previous games, so how do they manage to regress on this?!

Perhaps with "real AI" taking over the world at the moment, we'll see some improvements in this area in the next Civ. But I don't wanna wait that long!

This never happened to me in ANY game that I played so far. I am playing on the difficulty level Sovereign and Immortal depending on my mood/civ/map. Every game I play is full of wars. I don't know why but I kinda get through war-peace-war cycle in every 10 turns. AI is too vicious in my games, always seeking to expand or pull out of some **** on me.

In my last few games (I'm always playing Deity), I've had almost no wars at all - unless I declare of course.
I think the reason for this is that lately I'm always building the Gate of all nations wonder, which gives +2 war support. I also chase the first bonus on the Military attribute tree, which gives a further +1 war support.
Are you building this wonder, and utilising this bonus?

In my next game I'm going to ignore that wonder and see if it changes anything. Cause Civ can certainly be boring without any wars...

 

[jaegermeister]

No I don't build that wonder, I usually don't have that many free turns so that I can spend it on wonders. I am attacked early on if I don't have military units and I have to have a standing army to be able to fend off the enemy or even militaristic independents that keep sending units to my region. If I waste my turns on wonders then I get denied easily. I work on wonders only when I am sure I won't be attacked. This does not happen super early in the game. My early game is more like "Settle as fast as you can, create units, defend all you can." kind of thing.

One reason I figured out is that I keep attacking the independent powers and then some leaders get pissed as this goes against their agendas. I also settle towards them, creating even more hostilities. I do not declare war, they declare war on me for the most part. And sometimes they even team up, like Machiavelli does this 99% of the time, he waits until someone declares war on me, and then he jumps on that boat and declares war on me to seize opportunity - no matter the relation/agenda we had, he just dumps all that.

 

[MutilationWave]

No I don't build that wonder, I usually don't have that many free turns so that I can spend it on wonders. I am attacked early on if I don't have military units and I have to have a standing army to be able to fend off the enemy or even militaristic independents that keep sending units to my region. If I waste my turns on wonders then I get denied easily. I work on wonders only when I am sure I won't be attacked. This does not happen super early in the game. My early game is more like "Settle as fast as you can, create units, defend all you can." kind of thing.

One reason I figured out is that I keep attacking the independent powers and then some leaders get pissed as this goes against their agendas. I also settle towards them, creating even more hostilities. I do not declare war, they declare war on me for the most part. And sometimes they even team up, like Machiavelli does this 99% of the time, he waits until someone declares war on me, and then he jumps on that boat and declares war on me to seize opportunity - no matter the relation/agenda we had, he just dumps all that.

So I've noticed people talking about getting piled on in the early game and getting idiotically forward settled (razing penalty needs to go or be changed again, especially with the nerf to hub towns). But I don't experience this in my games. One thing I do is always, literally every game, build Gate of All Nations. The AI doesn't prioritize it so you don't have to beeline, and I think your starting war support may discourage attacks.

I play very loose and dangerous in the beginning of the game, usually a variation of scout X3, warrior, appropriate warehouse production building. Then I decide if I want another warrior or if I can press my luck and go settler X3. I will also have gold enough to buy defense if needed by the time I'm making settlers. I rarely get attacked and I guess maybe they don't have time to forward settle.

I've been thinking about this for a few days, what is it about the way I play that doesn't get the ridiculous forward settles or attacks on me early game? I do friendly greeting almost every time, that may have something to do with it.

 

[jaegermeister]

Ah, I see. I never do friendly greeting since that costs influence, and I rather spend that on befriending an independent that's near me so that I can incorporate it later. I'll try the friendly greeting thing next time, good catch.

I could also pick Bolivar to secure +1 WS, so even if I could not build that wonder for some reason, I would have a default 'shield' against declaration of wars. But knowing a generic formula would be nice since I don't always wanna play with Bolivar lol

 

[Berrern]

So I've noticed people talking about getting piled on in the early game and getting idiotically forward settled (razing penalty needs to go or be changed again, especially with the nerf to hub towns). But I don't experience this in my games. One thing I do is always, literally every game, build Gate of All Nations. The AI doesn't prioritize it so you don't have to beeline, and I think your starting war support may discourage attacks.

I play very loose and dangerous in the beginning of the game, usually a variation of scout X3, warrior, appropriate warehouse production building. Then I decide if I want another warrior or if I can press my luck and go settler X3. I will also have gold enough to buy defense if needed by the time I'm making settlers. I rarely get attacked and I guess maybe they don't have time to forward settle.

I've been thinking about this for a few days, what is it about the way I play that doesn't get the ridiculous forward settles or attacks on me early game? I do friendly greeting almost every time, that may have something to do with it.

I'm in the exact same boat!
I believe the core reason is the Gate of all nations, however that doesn't explain the AI not declaring on me in the period before I get that wonder. I keep reading stories like @jaegermeister 's above, and wonder why it doesn't happen to me, especially considering I play on Deity!

I've played quite a few games focused on IPs, where I always do neutral greetings and always accept (instead of support) any endeavour. And still I very rarely get into early wars.
Also, I almost never build military units unless I'm in a war (or planning an invasion), but I make sure I have enough gold in the bank to buy a slinger in case barbarians show up or someone declares on me. And enough gold to buy 2 units if I see I have strong neighbours.

I really don't understand why this is so different from player to player. I suppose mods could have something to do with it - do you use mods? I use a lot of them, but they're all related to UI, none of them changes any in-game mechanics or AI behaviour.

 

[MutilationWave]

Almost the same playstyle although I build more units, but not early unless there's a threat. I'd say I usually build two or three warriors by the time I'm getting the Gate. I very rarely get denounced or warred. I believe Napoleon is the only one who's done it to me and that's happened more than once.

I feel the same as you. I read a story about AI early war, or check out a screenshot of a ridiculously bad forward settle from the AI, and I'm thinking I never see this.

I always play deity. I use a lot of mods but they don't change the mechanics of the game at all. I even got rid of community bugfix because I wanted my games to be the same as other people's.

Do you use friendly greeting? I almost always do.

 

[jaegermeister]

@Berrern Same here. I use many mods but I never use any AI-related mod. I could share some of the things that I do every game:

- Never do friendly greeting (I always go neutral).
- Never build any wonders until and unless they are buildable in 10-12 turns. Spending 25 turns on a wonder in antiquity is just insane to me. I could create a lot of units in the mean time and go for conquest instead.
- Steal city-states using influence or wipe them out before AI gets hold on any around me. (this pisses of some leaders big time)
- Create military units to match with AI (I have a mod that shows military power of everyone, so that I know if some AI has massive army) or at least I try to have 50% of his military power to defend my territory.
- If I am declared war on, I always use stacked influence to buy warscore in the war screen so that my units always have the upper hand in combat.
- Go beyond my city limits (+2 or +3 depending on my happiness. I also have a mod that allows me to see how many settlements AI has. So I make sure I am never below them)
- Espionage to hinder hostile AI progress.

So far I could list these as my default strategy. Do you do these too?

EDIT: 50% times I play with Greece in Antiquity since my playstyle involves a lot of influence gathering.
EDIT2: I notice almost my city-states don't actually attack the enemy, they just stack up in their city center and 'wait'. Maybe it's a bug, I don't know.

 

[sixty4half]

Ideology can speed up your victory. Either by giving extra science or extra production to Specialists. I usually choose Facism for production. They nerfed that in the last patch though because let's be honest, 3 production per specialist was broken.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Interesting discussion of Early Wars. I fall somewhere between the strategies described here: always Neutral greetings, frequently attack at least one IP early on (because I don't have enough Influence to neutralize the 5 hostile IPs within striking range!), build usually a single army of 2 ranged, 2 warriors for that purpose. I've never had an AI Civ declare on me in the first third of the Antiquity Age, even when they forward settled me and then got mad because I was too close to them.

On the other hand, I almost never build Gate of All Nations and rarely have any advantage in War Support (I've only played Tubman once, and that very early after release, so can't speak to what difference her built-in War Support might have) and am generally still at a single Army Leader until very late in Antiquity, when I start preparing for the next Age.

Can't explain it. Any wars I get into early in Antiquity are almost always my declaration or against IPs, which have provided any early battles in almost all my games. In fact, I'd have to say my early settling (first 3 - 4 settlements) is more predicated on where surviving hostile IPs are than any hostile Civs when it comes to defense.

 

[evonannoredars]

I think it would be a lot more fun if the space race worked more like the antiquity and modern culture paths - you need a certain number of points rather than getting every single thing, but the sources of points are highly competitive. My rough idea for a rework, as I came up with it while writing this, is:
- After rocketry, you access a new 'spaceflight missions' tech tree.
- This has a sequence of techs each with a project, including first satellite, first animal in orbit, first human in space, unmanned moon landing, manned moon orbit.
- Each project has a chance of failure when you attempt it.
- The chance of failure is reduced by completing masteries or the future tech back in the main tech tree, or by allocating funding to it (effectiveness depends on how much of your gold income you are allocating, proportional to your science income - ie gold can make up for lower science yields, but less so if you have plenty of science). It is possible to get it down to 0% chance of failure.
- Being the first to complete a project grants three points, second two, third one and fourth onwards none.
- A project being completed gives everyone else a boost for that tech.
- Espionage for sabotage, stealing techs and counterspying would also play into this. You would get a screen showing who has researched/attempted/is attempting/achieved which projects.
- Gaining a sufficient number of points unlocks the final manned moon landing victory project.

I dislike that most victories have a final project (ie once you unlock it you just need to shift+enter until you inevitably win - economic one is more engaging, though still ultimately a matter of waiting to win), but the entire scientific legacy path being a waiting game as is definitely makes it the least interesting for me, so I'd welcome anything that makes it more interactive.

 

[sixty4half]

Just think how it is for us console players. No shift-enter. You have to click thru every notification every turn.

 

[Krikkit1]

I think it would be a lot more fun if the space race worked more like the antiquity and modern culture paths - you need a certain number of points rather than getting every single thing, but the sources of points are highly competitive. My rough idea for a rework, as I came up with it while writing this, is:
- After rocketry, you access a new 'spaceflight missions' tech tree.
- This has a sequence of techs each with a project, including first satellite, first animal in orbit, first human in space, unmanned moon landing, manned moon orbit.
- Each project has a chance of failure when you attempt it.
- The chance of failure is reduced by completing masteries or the future tech back in the main tech tree, or by allocating funding to it (effectiveness depends on how much of your gold income you are allocating, proportional to your science income - ie gold can make up for lower science yields, but less so if you have plenty of science). It is possible to get it down to 0% chance of failure.
- Being the first to complete a project grants three points, second two, third one and fourth onwards none.
- A project being completed gives everyone else a boost for that tech.
- Espionage for sabotage, stealing techs and counterspying would also play into this. You would get a screen showing who has researched/attempted/is attempting/achieved which projects.
- Gaining a sufficient number of points unlocks the final manned moon landing victory project.

I dislike that most victories have a final project (ie once you unlock it you just need to shift+enter until you inevitably win - economic one is more engaging, though still ultimately a matter of waiting to win), but the entire scientific legacy path being a waiting game as is definitely makes it the least interesting for me, so I'd welcome anything that makes it more interactive.

I really like that idea.
It makes it a bit more like the Wonders
(although I would probably have it reach a minimum… and every attempt should reduce the failure chance by ?10-15%?)

I would keep some of the missions earlier…possibly make them more involved (Transoceanic flight shoud require an Aerodrome in both homelands and distant lands…one of them could be your ally)

So still have a number of projects be flight
Lighter Than Air flight (available early in age)
Nonstop trans continental
Transoceanic flight
Flight around world
Jet Flight
Supersonic flight

Then with Rocketry
high altitude
sub orbital
satellite launch
animal launch

Have the winning one still be human space flight