Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
What's a GA?
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Hey, good to know, did not think of that !
Could be useful for Grognards !
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Well, following the Peloponnesian War, Sparta did have Hegemony, kinda like a Golden Age...Then Again, this scen doesn't cover Spartan Hegemony!
So no GA's, eh? All righty, then!
So no GA's, eh? All righty, then!
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I didn't mean to say we should actively try and keep the number of unique and flavour units down, only that there is no need for each Civ, particularly the smaller ones, to have a full set of unique/flavour units. If there's enough Hoplite variants to give each Greek faction one of it's own, then jolly good. (Altho I'd like to see the Spartans with different Spartan and Perioeci Hoplites before we concoct specific Cretan and Achaean Hoplites!)
As regards unit types, my vote for forgetting the "defensive" line. Give hoplites and other heavy infantry roughly equal AF and DF. A bit higher AF to encourage aggressive play, perhaps.
Idea: heavy inf has MF=1, light infantry =2 and Cav =3. This gives the opportunity to attempt "hit and run" attacks with light infantry without giving them an offensive bombard (which the AI would use to destroy roads ...). Light infantry should have decent AF (so they can actually achieve anything), poor DF (so they're in trouble if catched by heavies) and a defensive bombard (to encourage combined arms).
As regards unit types, my vote for forgetting the "defensive" line. Give hoplites and other heavy infantry roughly equal AF and DF. A bit higher AF to encourage aggressive play, perhaps.
Idea: heavy inf has MF=1, light infantry =2 and Cav =3. This gives the opportunity to attempt "hit and run" attacks with light infantry without giving them an offensive bombard (which the AI would use to destroy roads ...). Light infantry should have decent AF (so they can actually achieve anything), poor DF (so they're in trouble if catched by heavies) and a defensive bombard (to encourage combined arms).
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Another question; what about artillery. There wasn't much siege artillery around in those days, and field artillery, à la how Catapults are often used in the unmodded game, is flatly ahistorical. Is simply leaving artillery units out too radical?
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Their role (softening up the ennemy) could be done by light troops (archers, slingers, javelineers) or fast retreating cavalry.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
That was kind of my idea too. Perhaps upping the retreat probabilities to encourage hit-and-run tactics with light troops?
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
As for artillery,...maybe we should have Kryten coment! (Again!
)
(Again! )Greek Stud
Prince
cool people are talking again!
For unique units in each individual civ, looking around websites I found some really good ship units. Some might fit in but you all are better at historic time recognition. Anyways, there's a tireme and a seige ship where rocks are thrown out of. They look authentic to the Mediterranean region. One I got from a South Pacific scenario is of a pimp as sail type boat. We could just rename it. I'm not sure how you all handle unique units so this is just some ideas.
As for land seige units, what about just people with logs like on Age of Mythology. And I do remember types of seige rolling carts that rammed into walls and towers to knock them out.
Why not have the Wonders? with benefits (small) or even without. C3C provides us with the 7 wonders of the world of that time. it'd be cool to have them.
Delphi (the Oracle)
Athens? (the Temple of Zues)
Rhodes (the Colossues)
Alexandria (the Great Lighthouse)
some where in Achaia, Peloponessos (Mossalieum sp?)
Memphis (the Pyramids)
Babylon (Hanging Gardens)
other wonders:
Troy (Trojan Gate)
Knossos (Laberynth)
Delos (Delian League Treasury)
There also tons of Pagan Temples in Greek Anatolia. This should be the time period when they were actually used. I know there were major ones in the bigger cities: Smyrna, Halicarnusses, Miletos, Sardis, Attalia, Chalkedion, etc.
member, this is not accurate info coming from me hehe
For unique units in each individual civ, looking around websites I found some really good ship units. Some might fit in but you all are better at historic time recognition. Anyways, there's a tireme and a seige ship where rocks are thrown out of. They look authentic to the Mediterranean region. One I got from a South Pacific scenario is of a pimp as sail type boat. We could just rename it. I'm not sure how you all handle unique units so this is just some ideas.
As for land seige units, what about just people with logs like on Age of Mythology. And I do remember types of seige rolling carts that rammed into walls and towers to knock them out.
Why not have the Wonders? with benefits (small) or even without. C3C provides us with the 7 wonders of the world of that time. it'd be cool to have them.
Delphi (the Oracle)
Athens? (the Temple of Zues)
Rhodes (the Colossues)
Alexandria (the Great Lighthouse)
some where in Achaia, Peloponessos (Mossalieum sp?)
Memphis (the Pyramids)
Babylon (Hanging Gardens)
other wonders:
Troy (Trojan Gate)
Knossos (Laberynth)
Delos (Delian League Treasury)
There also tons of Pagan Temples in Greek Anatolia. This should be the time period when they were actually used. I know there were major ones in the bigger cities: Smyrna, Halicarnusses, Miletos, Sardis, Attalia, Chalkedion, etc.
member, this is not accurate info coming from me hehe
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Yes, exactly ! Now, is there a way of changing these odds ?
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Good ideas Last Conformist
Although cavalry running about with a speed of 3 is a little high (especially on roads), they could always be limited by making them 'wheeled' so that they cannot enter woods & mountains.
It is not possible to ride a horse through a wood off a path. I tried it once....well, I didn't have much choice, the horse was in control....and it still hurts!
As for siege engines:-
The Greeks were absolutely useless at sieges. 10 years to beieige Troy, the Athenian disaster at Syracuse, and the fact that the Spartans for 27 years couldn't think of a way of storming Athens!
All this changed in 357 BC when Philip II of Macedon organised a proper siege train that could take a city in a matter of months instead of years. And there were a few occasions when siege engines were use on the field of battle, such as by the Phocians against Philip at the battle of Onomarchos in 353 BC, and the Persians using them against Alexander the Great when he stormed the Persian Gates pass in 330 BC...but these instances were very rare, and are outside the scope of Amenhotep7's scenario.
On the other hand, we DO want cities to be taken during the scenario, even if the cities of Sparta and Athens themselves were nuts that were too tough to crack. So perhaps we should leave them in, or reduce the defensive bonus of cities and increase the attack factor of heavy infantry to compensate if we leave them out.
Originally posted by LouLong
Yes, exactly ! Now, is there a way of changing these {retreating} odds ?
Yes LouLong, under the "Combat Experience" tab in the editor, like this :-
LouLong
In love with Rei Ayanami
Alexandria had not been built yet (except if you consider the small Egyptian village of Rhacotis) so no Lighthouse either. That is more or less two centuries later.
Mausollos' own : in Sardis, the (ex-Lydian) capital of a Persian governor (satrap) (of the province of Lydia), not on the Greek mainland.
The Long Walls (Pirée to Athenes) could replace the Great Wall (?)
The Knossos Labyrinth would be out of use and fame then.
The Delian League Treasury seems like a good idea.
The Colossus was much after Alexander's death too, so it is out of scope.
What's the Trojan gate ?
Kryten
Smeee heeeeed
Haven't we alredy discussed wonders on page 12 of this thread?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1324713#post1324713
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1324713#post1324713
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
We discussed 'em. We only have a list as of yet...We should have some form of siege weapons, but maybe we should make them weaker and longer to build...
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to make seige equiptment a late tech. Maybe there should also be something like "Advanced Battle Tactics" which would represent the kind of tactics the Thebians used against the Spartans (although this was after the Peleponesian War, it was similar enough in time period to be mentioned). It could possibly give more advanced units and all other techs like that would come from it (Seige stuff, maybe Macedonian Phallangites, if the game lasts that long).
Here's a little info about it if you don't know what I'm talking about.
http://xenograg.isauras.com/excerpts/war/leuctra.php
The Thebians also used this same tactic again and won again. Sparta was so locked into its old ways that it was difficult for them to adapt to changes like this.
Also, Sparta tended to think of missile weapons as cowardly. But most of their battles (unlike the Persian style of warfare) centered almost exclusively on an Infantry clash (which the Spartans would probably win). I would probably make Spartan missile troops have poorer stats (even if they use the same animation).
As for Wonders: I would give Athens "Longwalls" as a special defensive improvement. Either don't make it buildable (and just give it to them) or make it require a resource in the city radius and put it directly under Athens itself. The reason I want it to be an improvement is because I want bombard units to be able to knock it down (if you get that advanced in the tech tree).
I think Delian Treasury would make a nice small wonder that would work like Wall Street.
I guess the Parthenon is an idea. Does anyone remember the name of Spartan training camp?
Here's a little info about it if you don't know what I'm talking about.
http://xenograg.isauras.com/excerpts/war/leuctra.php
The Thebians also used this same tactic again and won again. Sparta was so locked into its old ways that it was difficult for them to adapt to changes like this.
Also, Sparta tended to think of missile weapons as cowardly. But most of their battles (unlike the Persian style of warfare) centered almost exclusively on an Infantry clash (which the Spartans would probably win). I would probably make Spartan missile troops have poorer stats (even if they use the same animation).
As for Wonders: I would give Athens "Longwalls" as a special defensive improvement. Either don't make it buildable (and just give it to them) or make it require a resource in the city radius and put it directly under Athens itself. The reason I want it to be an improvement is because I want bombard units to be able to knock it down (if you get that advanced in the tech tree).
I think Delian Treasury would make a nice small wonder that would work like Wall Street.
I guess the Parthenon is an idea. Does anyone remember the name of Spartan training camp?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I'm not sure the Long Walls being destructable is a good idea. There simply wasn't any siege equipment strong enough to tear them down available at the time.
If we do them as an improvement, I think they should be build-able but require a resource in city radius as you suggest. That way the Athenians can rebuild them, should they fall.
If we do them as an improvement, I think they should be build-able but require a resource in city radius as you suggest. That way the Athenians can rebuild them, should they fall.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Well, since PTW allows new terrain, perhaps we could make the Long Walls kinda like an overlay...No? I await ideas...
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
That's why I suggested making seige equiptment a late tech. The way I imagine it is that a city as large as Athens would have two defensive abilities. The Longwalls will make it a pain to kill units, but they can be knocked down if you had any seige equiptment (but, since they are a late tech, that wouldn't happen often). The other defensive advantage is city size. Athens would have Metropolis population and get a huge defensive bonus. But here is where Athens had problems. Sparta would hurt their food production by sieging the city and preventing them from comming out (starve down the population). But Athens would rely on importing food from other cities (Harbor will make food from Sea a viable option to deal with the Spartan attack). 2 things will prevent Athens from living like this. First off, Plague hits Athens (C3C's plague fits perfectly here, it affects cities with luxuries coming in, walls, high pop, etc. more than other cities. Athens is the perfect target). And then the worst possible thing happens. Sparta builds a navy and the Athenian fleet is destroyed. When this happens, a complete blockade of Athenian food happens and the city starves down. When the city looses its defensive bonus (from being 5 citizens or less) it would be much easier to capture and Athens will loose its capital.
Anyway, that's just an idea.
That's exactly what I was thinking. And it should only be available to Athens itself (not even to any of the allied cities, they would only build regular walls, which disapear after the city grows to a certain point).
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