Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Give them the unit. You can see them attacking Sicily if you want 
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
While Syracuse was allied with Sparta, I'm fairly sure it wasn't in the Peloponnesian League proper.
And there's one thing we should keep in mind here; we can keep as many civs technically playable as we want, but balancing the scen will become harder the more civs we want to actually work well as human-controlled. This is particularly true in the case of Persia, which most likely will be pretty passive under AI control, but under the control of a nifty human might do a whole lot more than granting subsidies; week unit or not, all that territory adds up to some serious potential.
And there's one thing we should keep in mind here; we can keep as many civs technically playable as we want, but balancing the scen will become harder the more civs we want to actually work well as human-controlled. This is particularly true in the case of Persia, which most likely will be pretty passive under AI control, but under the control of a nifty human might do a whole lot more than granting subsidies; week unit or not, all that territory adds up to some serious potential.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
OK, I agree about Persia, but I'd still like Sicily to be playable (they are cool because they are a Spartan ally with a navy). But I have a strong hunch that my Alliance idea that would force the Sicilians to fight both Athens and Carthage (with Etruria) won't work with the current locked alliance system (I don't know this for sure, though).
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
No posts in two days? We're getting out of shape, folks!
We had alot of discussions on units a while back, but was anything actually decided? I still think the scheme with movement one for heavy inf, two for light inf and three for cav is good, but we should get something done on attack and defense values too!
We had alot of discussions on units a while back, but was anything actually decided? I still think the scheme with movement one for heavy inf, two for light inf and three for cav is good, but we should get something done on attack and defense values too!
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Okay, we'll need to open a topic! Calgacus and Kryten have experience on scenario development, so maybe they could help us identify what our priorities should be...I'd say we design the tech tree. I would say what stats units should be, but Kryten ain't done yet. So, we'll have to start designing a tech tree. Remember, we could have real simple tech tree with just events during the war, so keep this in mind. Suggestions, anyone?
So, we'll have to start designing a tech tree. Remember, we could have real simple tech tree with just events during the war, so keep this in mind. Suggestions, anyone?IMO, troops should be regarded as following-
heavery infantry (like hoplites)-
these are more or less the mainstay troops of the scenario, tough on both offese, and defense, but not really cheap
light infantry- a lesser typ of infantry, used for speed, and perhaps a special ability, like for pe;ltasts, consiudering they are skirmisers, ignoring the movement cost for hills, and forests
cavalry- a speedy unit, duh
good on offense, but cant stand up to a hoplite on defence, the only real bonus of using them is the speed (as hoplites, and various upgrades of the basic one should
have the strongest stats)
Unique Units- such as the Athenian Marine, the Spartiate, and the Theban sacrad band all should have some special abilty, or stat improvement, in addition, to prevent flooding of these guys into the game, they should require population points to build
heavery infantry (like hoplites)-
these are more or less the mainstay troops of the scenario, tough on both offese, and defense, but not really cheap
light infantry- a lesser typ of infantry, used for speed, and perhaps a special ability, like for pe;ltasts, consiudering they are skirmisers, ignoring the movement cost for hills, and forests
cavalry- a speedy unit, duh
good on offense, but cant stand up to a hoplite on defence, the only real bonus of using them is the speed (as hoplites, and various upgrades of the basic one shouldhave the strongest stats)
Unique Units- such as the Athenian Marine, the Spartiate, and the Theban sacrad band all should have some special abilty, or stat improvement, in addition, to prevent flooding of these guys into the game, they should require population points to build
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
I should point out that the Sacred Band was created by Gorgidas after the Theban "Revolution" of 379/8.
we know
but this scaenrio is just to good a precurso possibilty to Krytens Alexander scenario (which I might add, is still in slow production)
so a while ago, every one seems to have agreed that the post peloponesian time would be cool- even if the time limit of the game itself was from the beginning, to the end date of the war (the Theban sacred band could come at the extreamer end of the tech tree)
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I figure light infantry should have decent attack, poor defense, and a defensive bombard. They should be useful for hit'n'run attacks, and helping defend stacks, but be lost against heavy inf in a straight up fight.
Cav should be similar, but without the defensive bombard, and even quicker.
Possible stats could be something like this:
Hoplite: 6.4.1
Peltast: 4.2.2 4.0.1
Cav: 4.1.3
Wadya think? I'm imagining higher retreat chances than in the reg'lar game, to encourage hit'n'run with lighte inf and cav.
Cav should be similar, but without the defensive bombard, and even quicker.
Possible stats could be something like this:
Hoplite: 6.4.1
Peltast: 4.2.2 4.0.1
Cav: 4.1.3
Wadya think? I'm imagining higher retreat chances than in the reg'lar game, to encourage hit'n'run with lighte inf and cav.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I think we should do the tech tree first, maybe with a general guideline of when you expect units to show up.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Louie's Right, we should focus on techs first.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Anybody? I'd like 2 hear opinions before I start to sketch a tech tree.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
I don't have any much ideas for techs, actually.
Beyond the wild one; "year" techs like Yoda suggested (and implemented?) in his colonization scen. Basically, by setting the max and min research times to the same, you give everyone a new tech every X turns; by fiddling the dependencies you can also control in which order you get them.
The system is of course primarily relevant for scens in times and places where RnD budgets didn't figure. I don't know if it's a good idea for this scen, but I thought I'd mention it.
Beyond the wild one; "year" techs like Yoda suggested (and implemented?) in his colonization scen. Basically, by setting the max and min research times to the same, you give everyone a new tech every X turns; by fiddling the dependencies you can also control in which order you get them.
The system is of course primarily relevant for scens in times and places where RnD budgets didn't figure. I don't know if it's a good idea for this scen, but I thought I'd mention it.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Originally posted by Xen
we know
but this scaenrio is just to good a precurso possibilty to Krytens Alexander scenario (which I might add, is still in slow production)
so a while ago, every one seems to have agreed that the post peloponesian time would be cool- even if the time limit of the game itself was from the beginning, to the end date of the war (the Theban sacred band could come at the extreamer end of the tech tree)
OK. The Sacred Band comes more than two decades later. There are other names one could use for the scenario then. And why not start at the Persian Wars then? Actually, when does the scenario start. The first Peloponnesian War? The second Peloponessian War? Maybe Cointh should be independent then? I mean, if Thebes is.
(BTW, wouldn't it be cool to have a Theban Band Multi-Unit figure, showing the paired lovers
)
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
NAY! Spartan Hoplite Multi units all the way!
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The only idea I can think of for a tech tree is this:
I think siege engines and some other stuff should be late in the tech tree. Spata could not get past Athen's walls because they didn't have any. I think you should be able to get some, but with late techs.
Also, The Peleponesian War used the same tactics that had been around for awhile. Near the end, Sparta built a navy, but that's about it. However, soon after the end of the war, dramatic changes were made to Greek tactics.
The battle of Leuctra
This battle had dramatic influence on the way future wars in Greece were fought. The Spartans lined up in the standard formation, the best troops on the right, a few cavalrymen and light troops covering the flanks. They expected the Thebans to form in similar fashion. In such a battle the Spartans, superior both in numbers and in fighting quality, would unquestionably have been victorious. Epaminondas, however, refused to fight on Spartan terms. He quadrupled the depth of his left wing, forming a column 48 men deep and 32 wide. The remainder of his army, covered by a cavalry screen, was echeloned to his right rear in thin lines facing the left and center of the Spartan army. Sparta could not adapt to these tactics, and lost a devistating defeat.
I think there should be a "Advanced Tactics" tech or something like that that will give improved units, which use better tactics. This would lead towards Phallangites and other Macedonian type units at the very last parts of the tech tree.
Aside from this, and some mid-level tech that gives Sparta a navy, I can't think of anything else to add. So, I'll just give you a chance to sketch a tree, and I'll add my own comments afterwards.
I think siege engines and some other stuff should be late in the tech tree. Spata could not get past Athen's walls because they didn't have any. I think you should be able to get some, but with late techs.
Also, The Peleponesian War used the same tactics that had been around for awhile. Near the end, Sparta built a navy, but that's about it. However, soon after the end of the war, dramatic changes were made to Greek tactics.
The battle of Leuctra
This battle had dramatic influence on the way future wars in Greece were fought. The Spartans lined up in the standard formation, the best troops on the right, a few cavalrymen and light troops covering the flanks. They expected the Thebans to form in similar fashion. In such a battle the Spartans, superior both in numbers and in fighting quality, would unquestionably have been victorious. Epaminondas, however, refused to fight on Spartan terms. He quadrupled the depth of his left wing, forming a column 48 men deep and 32 wide. The remainder of his army, covered by a cavalry screen, was echeloned to his right rear in thin lines facing the left and center of the Spartan army. Sparta could not adapt to these tactics, and lost a devistating defeat.
I think there should be a "Advanced Tactics" tech or something like that that will give improved units, which use better tactics. This would lead towards Phallangites and other Macedonian type units at the very last parts of the tech tree.
Aside from this, and some mid-level tech that gives Sparta a navy, I can't think of anything else to add. So, I'll just give you a chance to sketch a tree, and I'll add my own comments afterwards.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Louis XXIV, not many people are aware of this, but the Thebans actually used similar tactics during the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides reveals that the tactics of deepening the lines was not new to the 370s when he describes how, at the battle of Delium (424/23), on the right were the troops from Thebes...the Thebans were drawn up 25 shields deep (Thuc. IV. 93).
Yes, they mass on the opposite flank and it isn't quite as deep, but the idea is nevertheless there by the 420s.
Yes, they mass on the opposite flank and it isn't quite as deep, but the idea is nevertheless there by the 420s.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Hmm...When I get C3C, we'll be able to make a "Tactics" tech for the Thebans, a "Naval Supremacy" tech for the Athenians, a "Ground Supremacy" tech for Spartans...
Anyways, I'll sketch a tech tree, (era 1 anyways), and then see where to go...As for Sparta being able to build a navy, IDEA: Why not add "Spartan Navy" tech, and allows for a unit named "Spartan Trireme", and this'll allow them to finnally combat Athens on the sea. Ideas?
Anyways, I'll sketch a tech tree, (era 1 anyways), and then see where to go...As for Sparta being able to build a navy, IDEA: Why not add "Spartan Navy" tech, and allows for a unit named "Spartan Trireme", and this'll allow them to finnally combat Athens on the sea. Ideas?Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Hmm...When I get C3C, we'll be able to make a "Tactics" tech for the Thebans, a "Naval Supremacy" tech for the Athenians, a "Ground Supremacy" tech for Spartans...
I for one like the idea of a wonder that gives sparta a free persian vessal every set nimber of turns- showing Spartan dependence on Perisna gold... though we would somehow need to limit this wonder to the Spartans only... perhaps if we made it a unique tech...
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