Peloponnesian War Scenario -- Phase Two

[The Last Conformist]

Quick googling tells me that Metics are indeed the same as Metoeci. The Greek's, no doubt, metoikoi. Means something like "among-living ones", IIRC. Thetes were one of the lower (the lowest?) socioeconomic classes of citizens, too poor to afford hoplite equipment, and thus did military services as sailors, which didn't require any much gear.

Don't really understand the problem with the Sacred Band idea. If the frequency is set to, say, 90 turns, then a unit will turn up on turn 90 according to my experience from other scens, and if the scen's shorter than 180 turns no second will ever show up.

Edit: Further googling shows that the Latinization "Metoeci" is practically unknown in English, so if we do anything with them we'd better call them Metics.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I see, I was planning on putting them in a tech (which happens to be in the third era). Because I thought the unit would have to be built then, it wouldn't have time to be produced.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Well, having the Sacred Band turn up at a fixed turn could get odd if tech research was being much slower of faster than expected. I still rather like the idea, tho - what says the rest of the people?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Here's a thought.

Although Persia was still ruled by their king (Darius II during the Persian alliance), the Persian Satraps also had some sort of independance. I'm thinking of the possibility of, instead of a giant Persian empire, you divide it into several Satrapies. The Satrap of the Ionian region was first ruled by Tissaphernes who, advised by Alcibieties, helped out the Spartans only when it pleased him in an attempt to wear out both Greek sides.

The Spartans decided to stop going to him for help that they rarely got and, instead, went to Pharnabazus, Satrap near the Hellespoint. He supplied money and troops (Greek Mercenaries and Persian Cavalry) for the attacks on those cities.

Back in ionia, Tissaphernes was replaced by probably the most influential Persian in the war. Cyrus became Satrap, and he provided generous funding for Lysander until he was recalled back to Susa, ending his help (but this was just as the war ended anyway).

 

[The Last Conformist]

Could be a neat idea. Just put them into a locked alliance.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Here's a thought.

Although Persia was still ruled by their king (Darius II during the Persian alliance), the Persian Satraps also had some sort of independance. I'm thinking of the possibility of, instead of a giant Persian empire, you divide it into several Satrapies. The Satrap of the Ionian region was first ruled by Tissaphernes who, advised by Alcibieties, helped out the Spartans only when it pleased him in an attempt to wear out both Greek sides.

The Spartans decided to stop going to him for help that they rarely got and, instead, went to Pharnabazus, Satrap near the Hellespoint. He supplied money and troops (Greek Mercenaries and Persian Cavalry) for the attacks on those cities.

Back in ionia, Tissaphernes was replaced by probably the most influential Persian in the war. Cyrus became Satrap, and he provided generous funding for Lysander until he was recalled back to Susa, ending his help (but this was just as the war ended anyway).

LOVING THE IDEA! But now we have to locate a map of the satraps.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

But IIRC the satraps couldn't go to war without the Great Kings permission. And also, there were quite a few satraps in Anatolia - the number of civs in the scenario could sky rocket meaning that the scenario will take a long time to load. But if you still want to go ahead with it, I'll try to find maps for you.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Why not just put major satraps?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Its a shame you can't have unit specific support costs, because ships were so much more expensive to maintain.

Here's a look at Athen's spending and income during the first year of the war (it could be useful for other stuff as well).

Athens had 6000 talents of silver in reserve (5000 were usable, as the last 1000 was only for emergencies). They also recieved 1000 talents each year (400 locally, 600 from their empire). Of this, they could spend 600 towards the war. They also had 500 talents of uncoined gold and silver, and, in an emergency, the gold plating on the statue of Athena could be melted down for another 40 talents.

Here was Athen's costs (this is the reason I bring up unit support). A ship costs 1 talent a month. Athens probably had an active fleet of 200 ships. Considering the usual operation period was 8 months, it cost them 1600 talents a year to maintain 200 ships.

The bulk of the army was tied up in a siege somewhere (My memories great, isn't it? ). The army was probably about 3500 soldiers. They cost 1 1/6 of a talent to maintain per day, 420 per year (as opposed to 200 per month for the significantly less amount of ships).

Anyway, in case you want to know, the total cost was about 2000 talents per year. When you factor in revenue, with Pericles' strategy, Athens could have had enough money to fight 3 years, but not a 4th (as opposed to the 27 it ended up lasting).

 

[Louis XXIV]

Time to overshadow my previous post about Athenian finances (which proved to be its undoing, after their empire revolted).

Here's the first draft of the first era of the tech tree.

Please add any comments and suggestions.

This is based significantly on the previous tech tree, and I added anything I could. Delian League and Spartan Military System are "entry techs" into the flavors. Civs that research these flavor groups must have these techs. I'm not sure whether "Athenian Navy" and "Peloponnesian League" should be researched or given at the start (Athenian Navy includes their ships, I think Peloponnesian League had something to do with giving Sparta Perioikoi).

Hellenistic Code will be given to all Greek civs to start (representing the code of conduct during Hoplite Battles, which basically would no longer exist after Platea).

Siege Warfare gives you forts, since the only siege warfare at this time is to build a wall around a city to starve it out.

Treachery gives you the ability to perform spy missions (like having some treasonous citizens let you in the city)

Mysticism gives you Oracles, which I suggested reduces WW (maybe I'm being a little selfish by manuvering the tech tree based on my suggestions but it is just a rough draft).

Trade Networks gives most people a basic ship.

Light Troops Tactics, representing the new tactics using missile troops (such as some of the stuff Demosthenes did early after Pericles' death). It gives you Peltasts

Horseback Riding, Couldn't think of a better name. Gives you a generic Horsemen. Thessally probably would get a better version.

I'm not sure if Democracy and Oligarchy were good ideas for techs. If they are included, they should be included for the civs besides Athens, Sparta, and Thebes (Sparta and Thebes should stay in Oligarchy, if Athens revolts to Oligarchy, it should be by its own tech in the 3rd era).

I assume Drama gives a Theater or something to improve happinees, and I guess Philosophy gives some kind of science improvement.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Wow. I really like it. Yeah, More Spartan/Athenian Techs...Let's brainstorm tommorow. Keep up the good work, Louie!

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Louis XXIV: 'Hellenistic' should be 'Hellenic' but apart from that, looks great

Apenhotep7: You could go for the major satrapies only, but it would leave big gaping holes everywhere. And besides, no satrapy was 'minor' any way and each had some importance and significance or else the emperor would have merged it with another.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Hm, my map only lists five satrapies in Asia Minor - Ionia, Lydia, Phrygia, Cappadocia and Cilicia. Now, it's not the best one, and I really wish Livius.org wasn't down, but I don't figure it's missing a whole lot. And the easternmost two, namely Cappadocia and Cilicia, wouldn't be playing much role in the scen anyway.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Sparta could have a "Persian Support" tech, which would allow for the Persian Alliance wonder.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That's in the Third Era

The second era ends after the major disaster in Sicily.

EDIT: I'll see if I can post my rough draft for the second era tonight.

 

[civilleader]

what will the 3rd era be?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Archidamian War, Peace of Nicias, Decelean War.

 

[Louis XXIV]

If you think I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel for this tech tree, wait until you find out I have next to nothing for the next era

Seafaring - Based on the other tech tree. I figured it would just give either an offensive ship, or maybe a generic Marine (so Sparta has a shot at conquering those one square islands).

Upper Class Troops - This is what I was suggesting about Citizen Hoplites. At the battle of Delium, the Thebans were the first to use an "Elite Hoplite" of 300 specially trained men from the wealthiest class. Additionally, the Argive alliance had a similar group of soldiers (1000 elite soldiers) for the battle of Matinea.

Schools of Thought and Reason - This was in the original tech tree, I don't know its point, I just stuck it in the second age

Modern Hoplite Tactics - At the battle of Delium, Thebes reorganized the right flank to a depth of 25. This is the first recorded example of the very deep wing hoplite formation. At Delium, it didn't succeed as well as at Leuctra (Thebes won by other manuverings, and inspite of this strategy). But it set the stage for later battles. I didn't have any plans for this tech, just make it required for the next age.

Horsemanship - Just a better Cavalry. Maybe some kind of Syracusan Cavalry as well.

Naval Tactics - This tech I was the least sure about. In Sicily at the battle in the Great Harbor, Syracuse used several different tactics to remove any Athenian advantage at sea. First, they reenforced the front of their ships to withstand a head on charge. Secondly, they had Javelin Throwers on each deck shoot at Athenian rowers. These two methods, although only useful in tight situations, desimated the Athenian Navy, and forced them to try and escape on land. In game, this tech should either give you a new ship, or allow you to build improvements for veteran ships (I'll explain more later).

Mercenary Troops - Maybe it could give Persia Mercenary Hoplites. Maybe a few other units (Athens hired Thracian Mercenaries right after the Sicilian expadition). Can't think of anything else right now.

Engineering - More of a suggestion than anything else. I'd suggeest it allows Barricades. Also, allow Longwalls to be built (Argos started to build a Longwall during this time). Make them very expensive, though, so Athens will be glad they don't have to build another one.

That's all I can think of besides some tech for Spartan Armed Helots.

EDIT: About the veteran ship thing:

The Isthman Track is supposed to allow Veteran ships to be built in Corinth. My suggestion is to give the cities of Athen, Corcyra, Syracuse, and any city on Lesbos and Chios similar improvements. At "Naval Tactics", allow you to start getting veteran ships at any city. Just an idea

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

TLC: There are Ionia, Cilicia, Cappadocia, Phrygia, Hellspontine Phrygia, Pisidia, Isaura, Lydia, and I know I've missed some. What you would want with all of these is beyond me. And considering the general Persian involvement was mainly to weaken BOTH Athens and Sparta, IMO it negates entirely the purpose of having them as different civs.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow
TLC: There are Ionia, Cilicia, Cappadocia, Phrygia, Hellspontine Phrygia, Pisidia, Isaura, Lydia, and I know I've missed some. What you would want with all of these is beyond me. And considering the general Persian involvement was mainly to weaken BOTH Athens and Sparta, IMO it negates entirely the purpose of having them as different civs.

Tissaphernes, guided by Alcibieties, followed this strategy (only when it suited him, as it was clear Alcibieties wanted to return to Athens). Pharbanzus did not. Apparently Darius II didn't either because he replaced Tissaphernes with Cyrus. Cyrus eagerly supported Sparta with generous funding (although treaty prevented him from fufulling Lysander's request of double pay, he did pay an extra Ouble for each sailor).