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PerfectMongoose (PW3 Civ4 Port)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Map Scripts' started by LunarMongoose, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    Sorry Gekko, I'm literally working 24/7 on my MM update at the moment. I might be able to look at it in 2 weeks or so, but hopefully Andy can help you sooner hehe.

    Couple additional points on my previous post:

    It's actually slightly more complicated than that, b/c I set the percentages to ignore Peaks in the 3.2 update. Peaks do have terrain types underneath them, but their values are irrelevant for gameplay purposes since all Peaks are functionally the same, so Desert is really "18% of non-Peak landmass tiles". If you have a lot of Peaks running through your big deserts, for example, you'll see a lot of sand at the bases of your mountain ranges, but it won't affect global terrain composition like it did before.

    Early on in the 3.2 update, I DID experiment with giving low rainfall priority over low temperature. By that I mean the 18% lowest-rainfall tiles were set to Desert first, then the coldest of the remaining 82% of land tiles were set to Snow and Tundra, then the tiles remaining after that were split into Plains and Grassland based on rainfall. The idea was to live or die by the "desert means dry, not hot" rule they teach you in school. ;) The problem was that yellow/orange sand just looks freakin terrible in the polar regions. I'm sorry, but it does. :p

    So I wound up doing it the way I did instead, which is also how Cephalo had it. He just didn't use locked percentages on the rainfall-based stuff, so while Snow and Tundra were constant before, Desert, Plains and Grassland amounts varied widely depending on landmass shapes in previous versions of PM and PW. While that's technically more realistic, I decided it was much better for gameplay to make sure all terrain types were always well-represented in every game. It can marginalize too many techs - and the units, buildings and improvements they unlock - otherwise.

    This is also why I converted Jungle over to being percent-based as well in version 3.2.1, which I haven't released b/c it's a more questionable thing to do than locking all terrain amounts was. In order to guarantee the required amount of Jungle, it will spawn it fairly far away from the equator when necessary (due to lack of land in the tropics some of the time), which can look a little weird. I still prefer it this way though, b/c otherwise Jungle-based game elements can get short-changed. (Or they can be overpowered if the reverse is true and there's tons of land in the tropics, heh.)

    But I'm not releasing this change unless people want me to. It WILL be in the MongooseMod version though, so the code can be lifted from there once I post it if you really want it. ;) (I also changed Oasis placement to be rainfall-based, but without the Scrub feature to reinforce that design I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to do in vanilla, vs random Oasis placement.)

    Okay, shutting up now, gotta get back to work. :p
     
  2. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    of course people want you to upload those changes :D
     
  3. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    Gah, I'm sorry, I had that backwards. Cephalo had rainfall-based things (Desert, Plains, Grass, Jungle-Rain) as locked percents, and temperature-based things (Snow, Tundra, Jungle-Temperature) based on fixed values.

    So in previous versions the amount of Snow and Tundra varied widely depending on landmass shapes, and the rest stayed at constant percents. BUT! They were at constant percents of the remainder since temperature is applied first, AND the size of the remainder was varying widely (b/c of Snow and Tundra), SO the amounts of rainfall-based terrain you wound up seeing were still highly variable. I didn't even realize the full scope of that problem til now, haha.

    Well you're the first and only person so far to ask for it, and I did ask what people thought about the Jungle issue back when I released 3.2... with no responses. :) And as I said, for vanilla I think Oases are actually better off the way they are.

    Having jungles occasionally stretch down toward (though not into) the polar regions IS kinda similar to what South America looks like on Earth (though I think the real jungle is still mostly tropical)... But Cephalo was very clear in his PW2 notes that he prefers temperature-based stuff to remain strictly controlled by latitude. So I'm just not sure how popular a change this would be overall.

    It's a realism vs gameplay argument, and while people easily sense how realistic things are (or aren't) in video games all the time, thinking about things from a balance standpoint is NOT something most people do naturally. (I would actually argue that even a majority of the professional game designers out there suck at it... Professionals in all creative fields also seem to suffer from a strong desire to fix things that aren't broken, usually breaking them in the process, sigh.)

    And like I said, it will be fairly straightforward to steal the relevant code from the MME version once I release it, so you should be okay. :p
     
  4. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I think it's mostly lurkers nowadays and that's why you didn't get many responses ;)
     
  5. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    Yeah, I know... But I didn't really get that many responses to my stuff in the more distant past either (no matter how awesome it was ;)), and I still firmly believe in challenging lurkers to come out of hiding and post by confronting them with opportunities to seize their own destinies and control their own fates. For example by letting them choose which type of jungle they want. :p

    Plus I know there's a good number of lurkers lurking, cuz I see the thread view and file download counts going up at a respectable pace. Maybe I should set up some mousetraps and gerbil wheels...
     
  6. Redarg

    Redarg Chieftain

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    Gameplay balance is very important for me, as I play mostly Pitboss Multiplayer Games. So I have no problem having Jungle in weird places.
    A map should be playable. For everyone.
    Creating a perfect planet simulation is another thing.

    Redarg
     
  7. modifieda4

    modifieda4 Chief Time Waster

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    as a lurker i made somce changes :)

    land water/ratio is set at 42% vs 29% default
    deserts is set to 14% vs 18% default

    using PW3 settings, it makes nice maps which can support alot of civs on a standard sized map and with alot of opportunity for early land combat :)
     
  8. Tholal

    Tholal Chieftain

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    Polar deserts wouldn't be sand. They would be snow and ice. The ice caps have deserts and some tundras are also considered deserts.

    Maybe you should fudge the 18% desert amount downwards a bit based on the amount of ice and tundra?

    I also think it would be cool to occasionally replace a desert area with plains, ala the Great Plains in the U.S.

    As for lurking, I've found that watching how many downloads you get is a better indicator than thread activity. People tend to post more often if they have a problem or bug or something to complain about, so if you're getting downloads and minimal complaints, then you're doing well!

    And I would also be interested in seeing this file updated with whatever changes you incorporate into your mapscript. Thanks for all the work!
     
  9. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    Ooh! Then do you mind if I ask if you've tried MM? I highly recommend it for multiplayer. :) Though at the moment you might want to wait for the forthcoming big update, haha.

    Yep, I'm sure that works well. I tend to balance around Huge maps so I don't have much experience with Standard.

    You can also try turning meteors off; smaller maps may work a lot better that way (I know meteors take out almost all the land on Duel size).

    Yeah, I know that now. But initially I was like, wait a minute, snow and ice (and tundra's permafrost) are water, which means they aren't dry at all! So dry polar should be desert! Then I tried it and was like, wow, what a terrible idea! ... Just saying. :p

    Nah... The "consensus" 20% I came to was for "real" desert, ie sand. If you include other types of "desert", the numbers you get on Google and other places are more like 35-45%. (Give or take; I don't remember this one exactly.) PM is currently 18% desert + 20% tundra + 15% snow, so that's 53%, but I'm not sure tundra should be included (in which case it's only 33%), and I like it this way for keeping all biospheres well-represented in a balanced way.

    I'm actually very happy with the terrain composition... There were too many Grassland and Plains tiles before and it made it too easy for everyone (especially the high-difficulty AIs lol). These numbers also look very Earth-like... I literally generated dozens of Huge maps with dozens of different variations in the percents while working on this thing, heh.

    Besides, you can always change them yourself; since the beginning Cephalo has always had them right at the top of the file so it's easy to do. :)

    The PW3 climate system is supposed to do that automatically already. (There was a lot of discussion about it earlier in the thread.) The Great Plains regions aren't AS big as before b/c I had the system completely broken before, and they probably won't show up much on smaller sizes, but yeah. Hrm.

    I know, I know... :p I just like hearing from people. Probably b/c I don't interact with other living creatures very often in real life, mwa ha ha.

    Alright, fine, that's two of you, which is a big deal as far as people posting goes, so I'll release 3.2.1. ;) I might wait til I'm done with what I'm currently working on though, just to be thoroughly cruel and evil beyond all reckoning and measure... Mwa Ha HAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
     
  10. modifieda4

    modifieda4 Chief Time Waster

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    yup, I have turned off meteors. I also manually check for peak-only isthmus..which are sort of lame :)
     
  11. Redarg

    Redarg Chieftain

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    just screwed my posting, once a again, a brief version:
    No I didn't. Just casual gamers. How tremendous are your changes to game mechanics? I probably can't force all the people I'm playing with to learn a new mod/game, complex as Civ4, just for one Pitboss game, so I'll just play Civ4BTS. Which is fine. I still haven't tried out all strategies I want to.

    Redarg
     
  12. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    I've changed so much from vanilla at this point I can barely keep track of it all, but at the same time, the whole point of my mod is that it still feels like vanilla BTS. (The other big mods... I didn't really get that impression, heh.) Plus it's specifically built for multiplayer.

    Neverminding the enormous pile of direct bugfixes most mods have from the Unofficial Patch project (and which no player should ever be without; plain Civ4 has a LOT of broken stuff in it, sadly)... There's a full list of my most major changes in the Stuff To Know sticky in my subforum, so I'm not gonna repeat everything here. And I'm certainly not asking you or your friends to do anything you don't want to do, but I've put my heart and soul into this project for the last 6 years, and I honestly think it deserves at least a quick look. :p

    Anyway, sorry for going off-topic. It's actually not much work to move my 3.2.1 changes back to the vanilla PM file, so maybe I'll get it out the door soon afterall... I'm just super-swamped atm. I seriously can't wait til I have nothing I have to do, again. ;)
     
  13. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    guys, how would I re-add the "start anywhere" and "break pangeas" toggles to a PW-based script that's got them removed?

    the variables are still there ( self.AllowPangeas and self.AllowNewWorld ) so all it needs is those 2 dropboxes that allow you to change it via custom game ( as opposed to having to open the file with a text editor )

    thanx in advance as usual :)
     

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  14. OnmyojiOmn

    OnmyojiOmn Chieftain

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    LunarMongoose, I just don't understand your thought process regarding starting city locations. The first thing I did with 3.2 was to generate several maps (small, 7 civs, default script settings) and look through the starting spots. Almost every spot is full of jungle, tundra, and peaks. How is it even possible for your generator to pick a spot that doesn't break even on food, even with max output from improvements?

    This is really frustrating, and disappointing.
     
  15. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    It's not "my thought process"... The starting location code is unchanged from all previous versions, except for some speed improvements which shouldn't be affecting anything. The code is actually specifically designed to ensure adequate food, moreso than on other maps or the original Cephalo version, thanks to Fuyu's update.

    Meteors tend to eliminate almost all the land some of the time on smaller maps, so it can be hard for it to pick locations b/c it has to also try and keep the players from starting right next to each other. Please try it some more, either with meteors off or on larger map sizes.

    I can try to figure out what's going on later but I don't have time to work on it right now. I know it works fine on Huge maps b/c I tested a ton of those. It's possible Andy's optimizations broke something, but I doubt it... I should probably force meteors to be off on Duel and Tiny, and maybe on Small, though.

    Edit -- Ooh, and the upcoming Jungle change in 3.2.1 should help with this a lot, b/c right now, as I've said, it's still based on absolute temperature (which is how Cephalo always wanted it). If the only land on the map is all in the tropics, the Grassland component is going to be almost all Jungle as a result. On larger maps this isn't a huge problem b/c there's always at least SOME land everywhere just from the sheer size of the map, but I can see it potentially being a big problem here, heh. Whelp I was already convinced I should go ahead and release this change, but this is another good reason to do it. :)
     
  16. OnmyojiOmn

    OnmyojiOmn Chieftain

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    You mean you don't clear jungle in starting spots? At all?
     
  17. LunarMongoose

    LunarMongoose Chieftain

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    It does clear them, and it also adds food resources, as needed to get up to a certain minimum required amount of food for a starting location. Again, this is not something "I" do or don't do; this is Cephalo's original starting location code, modified a little by Fuyu. I've never touched it. It's exactly the same as in previous versions.

    (The only real difference in 3.2 is that Snow and Tundra are percentage-enforced, so you will still get some even if all the land is in the tropics. But as far as Jungle and Peaks go, the starting location situations should be no different than before.)
     
  18. Heretic013

    Heretic013 Chieftain

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    any way to change max map size?
     
  19. Pojman

    Pojman Chieftain

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    I know I am a noob but... Can someone explain to me how to enable this script? I have downloaded it, but I do not know how to make it work.

    Thanks
     
  20. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    put it into Beyond The Sword/Privatemaps folder
     

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